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Juventus Serie A Titles. 31 Or 29?

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Hi everybody, I'm a true Juve fan and Notts County lover.


I would ask you if you know why Juventus says to have 31 titles, when the Italian League says 29.


I think most of the people will say 32 for the friendship, but I want to know if somebody really know the facts from 2006


 


FORZA JUVE!


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Didn't you have some of your title wins stripped the year the Italian FA demoted Juventus for match fixing?

I went along with what I was seeing, you'll will have to explain it to us buddy.

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I remember a scandal resulting in relegation,points deduction and fines for Italian clubs but I can't remember the exact details.It would be nice to have a Juventus Supporters explanation and opinion please.


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*Italian Magpies taking centre stage, he's preparing the microphone to announce to many PoNites the explanation of why it says 31 but 29 on the official Italian league*

Opps.. I didn't mean to give commentary!! ;)

Go for it buddy, your English is much better than you think.

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i thought it was 31?

Lets wait for Italian Magpie to explain, it's probably mentioned above. :)

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I'm trying to explain the history as easy as possible. It's hard because there are many "characters".


I've realized I wrote a lot of things. I'm not pretending to be clear as there are 7 years to tell you. It's hard. Hope you can understand something. I can reply if you need of course.


 


First of all you have to know some important things.


In Italy you can love Juventus FC or you can just hate, there's no middle way (except in very few cases). Many newspapers and tvs are against Juve. If Juve wins, there something behind, they've paid to win, they've stolen, they are thieves. 


When a referee commits a mistake in Juve's favor, all the championship is a farce, it's all stolen, all the other fans get crazy, the newspapers write pages and pages, tv shows talk for a week. When a referee commits a mistake in Inter or Milan, or any others team's favor...it's just a mistake. It's part of the game, nobody cares.


If Juve is good in Europe is not a honor for the most of the italian people, it's a shame. They prefer to have no team in europe.


Maybe you're asking why.


It's simple, and it's the second thing you have to know: in Italy there's no sport culture! There just envy for the winners. For example: two seasons ago Juve came back (thank God) and win a title UNBEATEN(!!!!) somebody said Juve stole that league title. WHY? Why such envy? Personally I can't suffer anymore this way of living football in Italy, it's just disgusting. Sometimes I would like Juve doesn't exist just to not watch it. And in fact I'm just follow Juve. And thanks God I can support Notts County, that is a liberation from the envy, the frustration, the stupidity of the most italian football fans.


 


Coming to the main argument...


In 2006 Juventus was winning the 29th title. At the end of the championship was have leaded the table for 76 days (2 years! and this is a record).


That Juve was one of the strongest ever.


 


Just to tell you, this was the starting 11:


Buffon (Word Champion in the summer and best keeper of the World Cup 2006)


Zebina


Cannavaro (World Champion in the summer and Ballon D'Or)


Thuram (finalist in the World Cup 2006, World Champion in 1998 and Euro Champion in 2000 :( )


Zambrotta (World Champion in the summer)


Camoranesi (World Champion in the summer)


Emerson


Vieira (finalist in the World Cup, World Champion in 1998 and Euro Champion in 2000)


Nedved (Ballon D'Or in 2003)


Ibrahimovic


Trezeguet (finalist in the World Cup 2006,World Champion in 1998 and Euro Champion in 2000)


 


On the bench: Alessandro Del Piero (I think I don't have to say nothing)


 


Really this team need some help to win? Really?


 


But let's go with the facts.


It was about the end of April 2006. As I said Juve was winning the 29th title, but a dark shadow was coming over. Some phone calls were intercepted. Phone calls about Moggi (Juventus director) talking with the referee designator about referee grids. Every referee was assigned to a game with a drawn ball taken by a journalist. There were grids because young referee couldn't direct big matches. And the grids was used also to send a referee to a easy game if he had made some big mistakes. So the newspaper was saying Moggi was the master of puppets and decided everything to have complacent referees and win games.


Later it was clear that was not possible. There were grids, there were journalist at the draw. How can one man corrupt all the people in the system?


Of course Moggi wasn't an angel  :angel: . We had the behavior like a man of the mafia, he knew italian football better than every other man.


He was not a saint, but he never changed a decision of a referee assigned to Juve or to an other team. So maybe he asked by phone calls to send a GOOD referee to direct Juve games. Good referee is not a complacent referee, he's just a referee who knows how to keep the game and who know the rules.


 


I'm sorry, it's getting long. It's 7 years of words and anger.


Let's go faster.


There were other things. Moggi was telling to Giraudo (another director) that he had closed the referee in the changing room at the end of Reggina-Juventus. Juve lost the game and was a little bit stolen. 3 penalties denied to Juve and the regular equalizer canceled. Moggi was stupid to say that, because...that wasn't true! I told you...he looks like he came from mafia, he wanted to do like a bully.


Well that thing was taken to the process in spite of was denied by the referee himself. But people still believe that. I can here people talking about that, 7 years later. 7 years of lies.


 


Summer 2006 was coming, the process too.


Meanwhile Italy was winning the world title with 5 Juve players.


In the process was asked for Serie C (League 1).


Juve's layer asked for Serie B! That was an awkward and scaring moment: when a layer ask for the relegation for the team he's defending?


This is another shadow on the process. Many Juve fans still think that some men seize the opportunity to make a clean sweep. This is another talk about two branches of the Agnelli's family.


 


In a fake process was decided Juventus in Serie B with 30 points of penalization. Two league titles (28th and 29th) was canceled. Oh sorry, one was canceled, the other one was assigned to Inter Milan (****). Inter Milan arrived THIRD in the table, just to let you know.


Ac Milan was penalized of an amount of points that let them play in Champions League (they've won it that year). Lazio, Fiorentina was penalized of some points. Juve in Serie B.


 


You're maybe asking why I'm saying it was a fake process. I want to be really honest: I'm not trying to convince you of the false thing, I don't want my opinion begin law or truth. I'm just explaining what happens. These are not feelings, these are the facts!


It was a fake process because was carried on by the media (I told you!!!). The phone calls was secret, but every day you could red them on the newspaper and hear them on tv. Why? Of course somebody was giving the phone calls to them


 


Imagine who.


Who've won the league?


There's a team of idiots who spent milions in poor players, a team who hasn't won a title for 20 years.


INTER. That's not an hypotesis. Inter has important sponsors. One of them is the national phone company: Telecom. They illegally spied Juventus directors, but also they're own players!!! Christian Vieri, ex Inter player, felt into depression as he was followed in the streets and intercepted on phone.


So they had a scudetto cause they where the honest team in 2005/06 and they illegally spied people. 


 


So who's the honest?


 


It's a fake process because was very fast due to begin the leagues in time. No witness, no time.


It was a process taken by the sports justice.


 


Juve in Serie B, what a shame for the colors and the history (never happened before).


 


Some process still continuing.


Thanks to Moggi, who's defending himself and Juve, some other things come to light!


In July 2011 Inter leaders are alleged to have committed sporting fraud during Calciopoli by FIGC (Football Federation) Chief investigator, Stefano Palazzi, claiming "Inter violated the article relative to sporting fraud and is directly responsible for having secured an advantage in the league standings by conditioning the regular function of the referee sector, but no court could confirm this allegations since all facts are covered by statute of limitation.


 


You know what? A lot of inter phone calls to the referees and referee's designator was found! A lot of them! This was FRAUD! Why those weren't listened in 2006? One of the police chief said: "We just focused on Juve, the other teams were not in our interest".


So is this not a farse?


If you call a referee (done by Inter and Milan, not by Juve) you are violate the rules!!!


Of course you can do it if you have the most important phone company at your feet. Then if somebody discover you...well God save the prescription. Inter deserved the Serie B, instead they had a league title and the future: no other team to beat, they've won everything the years later.


 


There was another process. I think it ended last year. It says that, and this is the most important part of all my long poem, the 2005/06 wasn't object of investigation (so why was given to Inter????????), the 2004/05 was REGULAR. Juve is not guilty!!! 


So why the scudettos are not in our showcase? Why one is still the spying team Inter?


 


Don't know. It's a shame to think about. Juve in Serie B, a catastrophe that destroy my great love for the years later too.


 


I don't know what will happen, but Andrea Agnelli (Juve president) and Juve directors, after the judgment of the innocent, asked a compensation of 444 milions of euros to the Italian Football Federation. Of course we will never see that money, but that's it. The was guilty of a big farse.


I want my scudettos back. For the FIGC we have 29 titles. As I told you, Juve is not guilty. We've won those two titles cause we had the best team. Those titles are ours and no one can touch them! 


So Juve have won 31 scudettos. We want them back, but we have them in our heart, in our history. 


 


 


ps: Oh sorry I forgot to say one thing. The 29th serie a title was canceled to Juve and assigned to Inter by a lawyer called Guido Rossi. Well nothing to say, except that...he was a member of the Inter administration council....shame on them


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from ju29ro.com a website that continues the battle for having the scudettos back:


 


CUT THE FAIRYTALES, IT'S TIME FOR FACTS That's it. Who's writing has always tried to argue every tiny little question, each single little facet(cutting) regarding what happened from 2006 till now. But now the time has come to put down the inkpots and go into battle. A conscious battle, which has to follow a hard and fast taking office. The new wiretappings that are shaking again the football world have opened an abyss in the consciences of who wanted to play shameful lies off as unquestionable truth. The reactionary writers have already moved to give a new frame to the situation and thery're trying to play the revocation of Inter's scudetto idea off being an eventually sufficient chance to put everything in order. They keep on telling that a Moggi system existed, that "What Juventus has done is under everyone's eyes", that very serious facts had been done which conveyed in right sentences".


 


No, things aren't like that and we don't accept the everyone's guilty or everyone's innocent logic. There are the guilties, but they're others. There doesn't exist any Luciano Moggi's wiretapping with a referee, there are no Moggi favour requests to anybody, nothing exists - resign yourselves to this - nothing about nothing. Luciano Moggi has been wiretapped, shadowed, humiliated, teared to shreds in every single possible way and the maximum proof of his guiltiness has resulted to be the grid discussion with the designator Bergamo. Normality that, we know by now, was welcomed by everybody and performed with an unknown malice even to who has been pointed out for years as footballs' supreme evil cause. And there wasn't even a diffused system, the so-called structural illicit. No gentlemen, this is a fairytale too, a tiny bed-time story. And to awake the dreamers it wasn't us, opinion partisans, but the penal process officiating in Naples.


 


How can it be believable a one sided investigation, conducted in a hurry and with superficiality, centred on Gazzetta dello Sport's synthesis, with investigators that didn't even deign themselves to watch the matches, to verify if their accusations could be proved, that they didn't want to investigate ( "We're not interested in Inter Milan" cf. Rosario Coppola's deposition/statement of facts ), who dispalyed to the four winds that " If you like it or not " other wiretappings except of those about the managers under charge did not exist. None of this can be believed. And let's stop it with the common accusations, which were denied several times, even from the same sport sentences. The rigged bookings don't exist, it's a constructed illusion in Leonardo Meani's head in his phone chats with linesmen Copelli and Puglisi, and immediately taken for granted: in the investigation object year Juventus has totalized 17, same level as the other big teams, and far away from Atalanta's first position. Ten of these have, in addition, been given by referees who were considered extraneous to the so-called cupola. On a wiretapping the journalist Tony Damascelli notifies Luciano Moggi about the sanctions provisioned for Nastase, Petruzzi e Gamberini ( the last one wasn't even liable for/of disqualification ) in Fiorentina-Bologna, but Moggi, astonished, demonstrates to not even know who were the warned players in the game in question. Never, anywhere, can we hear or read about Luciano Moggi asking explicitly for liabling deceitful sanctions.


 


And is a legend too the phone call, attributed to Giraudo, in which we can hear " If the referee is smart, halves us Udinese ". The conversation infact is following after an hour the Udinese-Brescia match, where in a completely correct way, Udinese's Jankulowski was sent off the field. And let's clear once and for all, the draws were regular. Every draw was officiated in presence of a notary and the ball extraction with the name of the referee was committed to an always different journalist, who drew after Pairetto had opened the assigning match ball. This circumstance has been explained several times, even by the Sport Press Union ( May 15th 2006 communicate ) and from the sport sentences, which don't care about this ridiculous charge without explaining the sentence. Even Mazzei, in one of the new phone calls, tries to convince Facchetti that there's no way, even if one would like if - as the ex Inter president wishes - to manipulate it. Did Moggi know the referees and the linesmen names in advance? It's a lie. A big lie. He was informed only after the draws took place, even if before the offical communication to the press. But there was who became acquainted with them much before then Juventus' managing director.


 


Leonardo Meani, for example, as the sms brought by the defence in the Naples process prove. And the same Facchetti, who was acquainted, even one day before, about who would have been the linesmen before Inter-Juventus. Not about just any match... And let's cut it out with the Paparesta closed in the changing room tale. This happening has been countlessly times clarified by the same referee and archived by Reggio Calabria's Public prosecutor's office. Could Moggi determine the referee's fate? This is another huge fabrication. Moggi theatens to have Paparesta suspended who, instead, regularly refereed the following sports day. Even better, thr truth is the opposite. This is what Pairetto declares in front of judge Casoria:" Who damaged Juventus, immediately returned to referee, who tryed to help was suspended for two and a half months". As in the Racalbuto case, after Roma-Juventus. Did Moggi keep a check on De Santis? Ridiculous. During the investigated year he's the ref with whom Juventus achieved the lowest average points (1,4). In this way the late lamented Giorgio Tosatti in a phone call with Moggi dated april the 20th 2005:" By now the referees piss on you. Yesterday I said it, I said yesterday to the Federation: you sent De Santis on purpose to **** up Juventus." And Moggi answers:" Within this year, between Palermo and Parma and this one here, it costs us easily six points. He caused to us a thousand problems during this championship. If we should loose this championship he is one of the authors 'cause he went against us far too much". Recently it has been demonstrated with whom the roman ref really did have close relationships, with Giacinto Facchetti. And before somebody complains, let's talk about the famous Swiss phonecards. Do the gentlemen which comment about football know, that in a penal trial the proof is established during the proceedings? This one, then, is the proof that has still to be demonstrated. In reality, up till now, only fully favourable elements to the defence have emerged. The phonecard to Paparesta is false, it belonged to his father.


 


The ones of Cassarà and Gabriele (neither of whom ever refereed Juventus during 2004/05 and 2005/06 seasons ), are also untrue: acquitted by Common/civil justice on january the 20th 2010. The small diagrams with the effective phone calls reconstruction, have been explained by marshal Di Laroni, who worked on this investigation, as "presumable", without considering the countless mistakes in the cell assignments, with refs being in completely different places at the moment of the accused calls. Even supposing that De Santis' phonecard went and got lost, as the same ref will prove during the trial:" A Swiss phonecard has been imputed to me between january the 7th and march the 28th but my being one of the system's ( cupola ) promoters, it sounds strange to me that I could have had it only during that period. I never had one and did never use it, during that lapse i was attending a penitentary vicecommissioner class, I was attending it daily and i've given you the proof. In many of the occasions in which the use of the swiss phonecard is imputed to me I was at school attending the course".


 


And what to say about the fact that Juventus, with the "swiss" refs had the lowest average score in comparison to AC Milan ( 2,08 points in comparison to 2,07 points during the championship ) and of Inter Milan ( 1,9 on a total average of 1,89 ). Juventus infact had totalized an average of 1,88 points, in comparison with a much higher total average: 2,26!!! So where is this notorious system ( cupola ) ? From which elements can we desume that Luciano Moggi and Antonio Giraudo - abandoned, with no press or television friend and without any ownership/property support - could control italian's championship's fate? Such a reconstruction can only exist in the minds of who wanted to hit only one target and in the words of who claimed and fueled this theory. Why, for example, was the attention never focused on the milanese teams? Infact there are in no way comparisons between the behaviour of Inter Milan and AC Milan managers and Luciano Moggi's one. Sure, but in worse. Let's try to make things clear. There are no wiretappings between Luciano Moggi and the referees. There are instead incontrovertible facts regarding the relationships between some of these and the milanese teams.


 


Close relationships have been demonstrated between Giacinto Facchetti and the ref Nucini, who was operant at the time but has mysteriously disappeared nowadays from the tv salons he used to hang around. There are proven dealings between Inter Milan's ex president and Massimo De Santis, in person, the ref mocked and slandered by all as enslaved to Moggi's powerful control. With the Tivoli's referee Facchetti speaks about Walter Gagg, the FIFA officier, already accused to have performed tasks "in Inter Milan's name and function". Where Luciano Moggi compared referees grids, Giacinto Facchetti directly tries to by-pass them, falsifying the draw before Inter-Juventus of november the 28th 2004. Facchetti:" No, there they don't have to do draws, they have to..." Mazzei:"But how can that be done, Giacinto, unfortunately luck is needed". Facchetti:" Oh c'mon..." Mazzei:"I'll tell you the truth, here the draw is done by a journalist, they have to study up a grid and the chances are much higher". Luciano Moggi has NEVER done this. Luciano Moggi didn't know the designations the day before the matches, Moggi has never forged passports ( cf. Oriali has been sentenced by the civil justice ) aiming to make available a player that, otherwise, could not have been lined up. In this way you really falsify championships. Moggi didn't meet up with refs before the matches ( cf. Moratti who goes to say hello to Bertini before Inter-Sampdoria ) and neither did he during the break ( cf. Facchetti's disqualification after Chievo-Inter of 2002/03 championship ).


 


No F.C. Juventus manager ever allowed himself to shadow and illegaly wiretap one's own player, least of all other team managers, referees o Football federation representatives. Juventus never, with a company in it's propriety orbit, has sponsored the italian championship and the Coppa Italia ( cf. TIM sponsors both the competitions ). This is the reality of the facts. And AC Milan? It's them who speak to almost every referee and linesman! They have the power. An owner who is Prime Minister and a President that, at the time of the facts was heading the football League and the big master of ceremonies on broadcasting rights. Three national televisions in service of THEIR OWN truth, three televisions with which to tell, not tell, omit, twist. Newspapers, radios, websites and an avalanche of opinionists giving THEIR OWN version of facts. But in the meantime Juventus was the one that plotted up everything.


 


Then they should explain to me these wiretappings ( already present in the informative reports, but never considered... ): Mazzini to Moggi, regarding the next League elections:" With Cellino, Galliani told me, there are no problems, because Berlusconi makes him vote". Ghirelli speaks to Mazzini, always talking about the elections:" Galliani has to move through Berlusconi" so to " influence AN & party/Co." Mazzini to Moggi:" However I called Galliani this morning, I told him: now listen to me, I say, look, move your political godfathers too, because, that Zamparini belongs to AN and that he should vote for Abete, it's really a thing that... it doesn't exist at all". Bergamo to Mazzini:" Gigi ( Pairetto, editor's note ) answers for Sampdoria, for AC Milan, for Inter Milan, for Verona, for Vicenza, for Palermo, to everyone where there are department stores and he needs to work". However could two solitaire managers of opponent teams put together a swindle of such an empire? Infact they couldn't, 'cause everything exists only in one character's mind which has the strange and peculiar position of "referees' employee". That Leonardo Meani, who is credible when he says he defends himself from Juventus, simple temporary employees contract man to repudiate when entertaining every kind of relationship with almost the whole class of referees. Don't you believe it? Let's start with Collina, for whom meetings on Galliani's behalf were organized, in Meani's own restaurant. Moreover, during the closing day, " so nobody can see us ". Meani who wishes him to soon become the designator, like that " I won't call you anymore ", who reminds him about when he helped him in the selections " I remember when we put the veto on Pisacreta " and that he called " the boss, the big boss " to relate about this beautiful friendship with the Viareggio ref.


 


NO, MOGGI DIDN'T DO THESE THINGS.


 


And what about Puglisi the linesman, named by Babini, another linesman ", "Puglia", AC Milan's fanatical supporter ". Before the Champions League derby, Puglisi calls his buddy: " The main thing is that we manage to rip Inter's ass ". A few days later Meani encouraged him about his future:" In your opinion, why do I know? Because I'm pushing like mad for you, no! ". Puglisi himself, who asks Meani if he'll be linesman for AC Milan-Chievo and he answers that he was been already chosen for Parma-Sampdoria, but he will change the designation. As it actually happens. And he protects himself too, giggling:" Anyway try to shut up about these things I'm telling you, ay? ". Ending up he confides how he prepared Babini for AC Milan-Chievo:" Intelligent wednesday as they want, in doubt on one side you go up and on the other side you stay down. Then, if things are sensational which everybody can see, nobody will say anything ay! ". And even with Galliani he pushed for him: " Puglisi though we must heaven & earth to put him in Serie A & B, ay? ". On the other hand, the president had already understood everything: " I heard you've already spoke with Puglisi ". HAVE YOU EVER HEARD MOGGI SAYING THINGS OF THE SORT? Even Messina the ref was astonished, who on the phone with Lodi's restaurateur, asks: "Hey, but was it you designating the linesmen ( AC Milan-Chievo, editor's note ) or them? ". And Copelli? Before AC Milan-Sampdoria he was reassured: " Have you seen that I'm raising and I'm too... I'm raising Messina too ". Copelli is the one who states in front of Borrelli on the 13th May 2006: "If a linesman would have wanted to direct an AC Milan match, he should't have asked the designators but Meani ". Right, infact, many times Meani had told to him directly: " Don't worry, now I'll take care of it. I'll speak to Galliani, Galliani knows, i'll tell him: listen, he's our man I'll tell him ". And then the confidences to Contini, another linesman: " Me and you are friends, you could give me a little more, ay.... but that's alright... you rebuke the player instead of giving him the yellow card, these sorts of things namely, ay... ". Babini even gets scared. After he found out that it was Meani who chose AC Milan-Chievo's designators, he calls to tell him: " That match should be rejected, with this designation they confirm that everything's rubbish [...] I've told you that we're making all Italy laugh with this designation ". Unforgettable the promise to Rodomonti: " I've also managed to make you get seven and a half from Cecere[...] Anyway, look, my president called me and he'll give you the address and he'll send you too to Switzerland to have your hair transplant done ".


 


And how can we forget about Meani asking Mazzei to send Ambrosino, who says to Pasquale D'Addato ( AIA observer from Bologna ) to not worry about the progress of his career preferment because he'll speak to Lanese: " We would be pleased if this D'Addato could become a regional president. I'll tell him: Doctor Galliani would like to make him become president ". We could go on for many pages, but we'll stop here, not without reminding the by now famous warning to Bergamo in view of AC Milan-Juventus ( match which before hand Meani donated watches to the three referees... " but you have to make a nice pep talk To Trefoloni, otherwise we'll cut his head off " ) and the loving efforts of Galliani who moves himself so to allow the arrival in the undersecretary Gianni Letta's hands, ref Paparesta's dossier about his working activity at AssoBioDiesel. So let's stop it, once and for all to tell each other fairytales. The powers were others, and were very strong. But the time has finally arrived to become conscious, everyone! It's unacceptable that they still try to mislead us on what happened. It's unacceptable that they propose solutions for their own convenience. We want justice, and it shall be fully fledged justice. Starting with the restitution of the two scudetto's unfairly purloined, till the certainty of a tough punishment to who, really, operated in a not quite crystalline way. This is our battle now.


 


 


 


ps: I've realized that Juve fans are very long in writing about it. Because we want JUSTICE!


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I've been wondering what happened for a while, its good to have it explained properly, and get a Juventus supporters take on it. It all seems very odd, and it dosent seem like the investigations were done properly. Its as if the authoroties wanted to punish Juventus, but they were almost interested in helping Inter become Italies new big side.


 


Your English is much better than you think. You make more sense than some of our fans ;)


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I've been wondering what happened for a while, its good to have it explained properly, and get a Juventus supporters take on it. It all seems very odd, and it dosent seem like the investigations were done properly. Its as if the authoroties wanted to punish Juventus, but they were almost interested in helping Inter become Italies new big side.

that's the point

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It was odd when it happened, I can recall thinking that it require a lot of fine combing and checking to make sure what actions are taken are fair. I believe they were harsher on Juventus? I don't recall anyone being relegated etc.

Only points docked, that said it'll take me awhile to understand football.

These things just fly over my head, it's like the time Weymouth told us about a team who hadn't paid a small fee (like £15) end up punishing them.

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Haha, you mean the story of Thurrock being sent down a league because one of their players failed to pay a ten quid fine for an incident at a Sunday League match? Crazy stuff. Oh, by the way - Thurrock's appeal was rejected by the FA. They dont have a problem with picking on a small club like that, but would they do the same thing if a Man United player were to not pay a fine? What a daft question! Can you tell, this saga has really annoyed me lol


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I understand why you are so annoyed.The whole saga seems to have been handled wrongly.What do other Italians think of it(Neutrals)


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I understand why you are so annoyed.The whole saga seems to have been handled wrongly.What do other Italians think of it(Neutrals)

As I told, there are no neutrals when you talk about Juve :(

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