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@Bainbridge NCFC Don't mind you voting Leave but wondered with all the facts about Brexit reality, have you considered changing your mind? Like saving NHS or brexit, you cannot have both?

@hissingdwarf watched your Labour video... Noting about crashing the economy, less tax revenues, "regional banks"?   wheres the money going to come for all this, if car manufacturing and aerospace jobs go to the EU...what jobs will these workers do now? How many of those families have their main wage earner on the dole?

These are the realities

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@Piethagoram still not changed my mind, the EU is a bad part to be in. Switzerland one of the thriving countries in Europe not in EU. Greece bankrupt, France almost bankrupt. All because EU. We are the punching bag for the EU. We need out. In or out, the party in power will do whatever they want anyway. 

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On 29/09/2018 at 10:16, Piethagoram said:

@Bainbridge NCFC Don't mind you voting Leave but wondered with all the facts about Brexit reality, have you considered changing your mind? Like saving NHS or brexit, you cannot have both?

@hissingdwarf watched your Labour video... Noting about crashing the economy, less tax revenues, "regional banks"?   wheres the money going to come for all this, if car manufacturing and aerospace jobs go to the EU...what jobs will these workers do now? How many of those families have their main wage earner on the dole?

These are the realities

Firstly, Brexit is not a party issue as such. Neither the Tories or Labour have a party line on it because, well, it’s so split! I think the resolution at conference this week lays down a clear path.

in answer to the question regards the usual “where’s the cash coming from” Let’s remember at the last election Labours mane fest was totally costed and approved by the OBR. The only one out of all 3 to be costed and approved. Like it or not, the top earners are going to have to shoulder the weight a little to allow the country to prosper. It’s not right that the 5th richest country in the world sees Nurses going to food banks whilst at the same time tax avoidance is rampant in the higher earners and the Tory Cabel sweat the cash cow that is the British economy. Regional investment banks would be there to stop just that and offer ways out to local people. 

Tax ‘em to make it fairer. Wealth distribution is fatally flawred at the moment. Needs a radical approach so our towns can prosper again.

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On 29/09/2018 at 22:41, hissingdwarf said:

Firstly, Brexit is not a party issue as such. Neither the Tories or Labour have a party line on it because, well, it’s so split! I think the resolution at conference this week lays down a clear path.

in answer to the question regards the usual “where’s the cash coming from” Let’s remember at the last election Labours mane fest was totally costed and approved by the OBR. The only one out of all 3 to be costed and approved. Like it or not, the top earners are going to have to shoulder the weight a little to allow the country to prosper. It’s not right that the 5th richest country in the world sees Nurses going to food banks whilst at the same time tax avoidance is rampant in the higher earners and the Tory Cabel sweat the cash cow that is the British economy. Regional investment banks would be there to stop just that and offer ways out to local people. 

Tax ‘em to make it fairer. Wealth distribution is fatally flawred at the moment. Needs a radical approach so our towns can prosper again.

The problem is that Labour needs to win the "middle England" vote by taking Tory constituencies.... over the years, there is enough election evidence that these people dont vote for tax rises.. Labour may well increase votes in their own individual strong Labour areas but cannot see Corbyn, by taking Labour to the Marxist left ideology, he will disenfranchise so many potential voters ( including myself who sympathise with making a fairer Britain...but profoundly disagree with the way he is going about it)

When figures of 80%+ of Labour members wanting a #PeoplesVote. Jeremy suddenly has a blind spot and cherry picks, refusing the members interest in this case.... Hardly democratic, don't you think. He seriously is Pro-Brexit and is willing to standby and see the destruction of the automobile industry, aerospace and financial services

 

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Tories - give to the rich, take from the poor

Labour - borrow money put us in debt and corbyn and Abbott in the party no way they should be in power

EU - we are the punch bag for them anything they can squeeze out of us they take for nothing. No reason. We have rules here but we are dictated to, we managed for so many years without the EU we can do it again. How many time have you seen this country want to do something for the better of this country only for the EU to reject it. 

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1 hour ago, Bainbridge NCFC said:

Tories - give to the rich, take from the poor

Labour - borrow money put us in debt and corbyn and Abbott in the party no way they should be in power

EU - we are the punch bag for them anything they can squeeze out of us they take for nothing. No reason. We have rules here but we are dictated to, we managed for so many years without the EU we can do it again. How many time have you seen this country want to do something for the better of this country only for the EU to reject it. 

"How many time have you seen this country want to do something for the better of this country only for the EU to reject it. "

 

Please provide some examples @Bainbridge NCFC

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2 hours ago, Piethagoram said:

The problem is that Labour needs to win the "middle England" vote by taking Tory constituencies.... over the years, there is enough election evidence that these people dont vote for tax rises.. Labour may well increase votes in their own individual strong Labour areas but cannot see Corbyn, by taking Labour to the Marxist left ideology, he will disenfranchise so many potential voters ( including myself who sympathise with making a fairer Britain...but profoundly disagree with the way he is going about it)

When figures of 80%+ of Labour members wanting a #PeoplesVote. Jeremy suddenly has a blind spot and cherry picks, refusing the members interest in this case.... Hardly democratic, don't you think. He seriously is Pro-Brexit and is willing to standby and see the destruction of the automobile industry, aerospace and financial services

 

Just a couple of points...

Firstly, to win in ‘middle England’ would be great, it is not needed anymore. That’s the Tory papers talking. In actual fact Labour need to retake traditional seats such as Mansfield. That and Scotland. Trust me, Scotland is the main battleground and if Labour win back seats there then it will make up the next government.

Back on the Brexit vote, you give JC too much credit. As a party the NEC of Labour decide policy so individual views are irrelevant until in the room with 30 others. Yes he is pro Brexit, but the NEC recognised the pull towards a ‘peoples’ vote And a second referendum and that’s why the Brexit composite was formed last week at conference. All options in the table, including remain. First port of call is a general election though. 

Which policies do you feel are too left? Off the main topic I know, but interested as people say that and then don’t back it up as a left policy, just something they don’t agree with. I personally don’t see taxing the top 5% to fund the nhs, or clamping down on tax evasion to ensure we have universal childcare for 2-4 year olds as Marxist. Nationalisation has been proven to work in a modern setting with the East coast railway when it was run in house a few years ago, and by contrast the rest of the franchises are failing miserably. Remember when you pay your water bill 85% of the money you pay goes abroad in dividend whilst the bills go up and leakages increase to the point they could supply most of England on their own!

If being on the side of workers by allowing them 10% share holding to have a voice is Marxist then so be it. If banning zero hour contracts. Investment banks to allow local small businesses to flourish and local councils to build council houses again so people have a home to call their own...

The list seems sensible so far to me!

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@hissingdwarfgood response...

The trouble is that Scotland, the SNP now acts as the Social Democratic party, similar to the Swedish model..... last election some Scots turned to Conservative rather than Labour...I honestly dont see any change...Labour has truly lost Scotland and cannot win it back IMHO

No problem with taxing the richest 5% or tackling tax evasion, social house building

"Nationalisation has been proven to work in a modern setting "...unfortunately not, Network Rail has failed to deliver on time or within budget on numerous projects... The performance has been a disgrace to the taxpayer

Utility companies, dont mind get strict with them...but if Labour goes through with Brexit ( I have absolutely no confidence in them ever getting or delivering to a #PeoplesVote,), how is Labour going to deal with Hinckley Point Nuclear Power plant when it goes outside of Euratom? or electricity cuts in Northern ireland? Please explain the safeguards in Labour's policy? 

Still also concerned re regional investment banks? How different will they be than "normal banks"...if the project is good enough, normal banks will lend? If brexit goes ahead, there will be no money for structural funding? Not costed....

 

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46 minutes ago, Piethagoram said:

@hissingdwarfgood response...

The trouble is that Scotland, the SNP now acts as the Social Democratic party, similar to the Swedish model..... last election some Scots turned to Conservative rather than Labour...I honestly dont see any change...Labour has truly lost Scotland and cannot win it back IMHO

No problem with taxing the richest 5% or tackling tax evasion, social house building

"Nationalisation has been proven to work in a modern setting "...unfortunately not, Network Rail has failed to deliver on time or within budget on numerous projects... The performance has been a disgrace to the taxpayer

Utility companies, dont mind get strict with them...but if Labour goes through with Brexit ( I have absolutely no confidence in them ever getting or delivering to a #PeoplesVote,), how is Labour going to deal with Hinckley Point Nuclear Power plant when it goes outside of Euratom? or electricity cuts in Northern ireland? Please explain the safeguards in Labour's policy? 

Still also concerned re regional investment banks? How different will they be than "normal banks"...if the project is good enough, normal banks will lend? If brexit goes ahead, there will be no money for structural funding? Not costed....

 

SNP have seen a massive drop in popularity over the past 12 months and continue to slide and the Tories won't pull Scotland in, but polls can be argued until the cows come home.

National Rail is part of the issue and needs new direction as part of the renationalisation programme. It has been left to fester imo and is often a reason for issue so Labour will overhaul the whole system from track to train.

I honestly don't know enough about the Hinkley Point deal so rather than bluster, I'll take a look when I get the chance. Not a politicians answer I know, but I prefer to not bs around issues.

Regional investment banks...You are slightly wrong with the interpretation of their purpose. Yes they will enable small businesses to lend, but more importantly they will offer good finance to other agencies that are currently ham strung. EG Councils. They have a few loan schemes available to them, but the current rules imposed down mean that they're not a good choice. Regional banks will encourage inward growth and promotion. The Preston model is a great example. With a local regional investment bank behind them, they could take that model national and finally see job growth based on local investment rather than PFI or multi-nationals. Localised knowledgeable finance to support local businesses as well as offer central funding streams for local government to invest locally in projects that have been shelved for the long term due to Austerity. And the investment pots for the regional IB were costed in the last manifesto. As was every other policy. The only party with a fully funded and OBR agreement that it was all correct and ready to work in Government. Don't think the OBR agreed with any other and definitely sure the 120 billion for the dup was funded and costed. Neither is the 120 million for a sodding Brexit Party!!!!!!!!!

Still not seeing the 'Marxist' policies. Not goading mate, just that when people get to the nitty gritty of policies the headlines such as Comrade Commie Corbyn usually fall away.

There will always be some elements that some disagree with. That' s why a manifesto and policy document is an evolving document. The core principals such as NHS free from cradle to grave and the same with education aren't marxist...They're desperately needed.

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@Piethagoram we have a housing crisis and state we can't provide more but the EU butted in telling us we need to take so many more eu nationals in, refugees coming over we get told to accept them even though theres France Germany Italy etc who are able to take them, Abu qatada being deported was prevented by the EU even though he posed a threat to the country. No matter what we say housing crisis, NHS crisis, deportations while under the rule of the EU we will forever suffer crisis after crisis. 

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9 hours ago, Bainbridge NCFC said:

@Piethagoram we have a housing crisis and state we can't provide more but the EU butted in telling us we need to take so many more eu nationals in, refugees coming over we get told to accept them even though theres France Germany Italy etc who are able to take them, Abu qatada being deported was prevented by the EU even though he posed a threat to the country. No matter what we say housing crisis, NHS crisis, deportations while under the rule of the EU we will forever suffer crisis after crisis. 

Sorry @Bainbridge NCFC...European Court of Human Rights is NOT an EU institution..Nothing to do with the EU..... The UK rebutted the "refugees" so UK exerted its own sovereignty

it seems you are blaming EU just for the sake of it where in actual fact, the UK is exerting its own decision making.

The flip side, is that if we dont tie in  with the EU, we will have a trade deal with Trump...where NHS is put up for sale to US Medical companies, agricultural products where level of pesticides would more than likely prevent the export of UK agricultural goods to the EU, chlorinated chicken and GM food products / hormone induced beef will be imported....fine if you are happy with this, but I certainly am not...

the EU have already said any visa imposed by the UK, will be matched on the same basis...so holidays to Spain, costs will increase with charges for visas

The status of all the retired UK citizens in Europe, what happens when the EHIC card ends, the NHS is stretched to breaking point...how will it cope with thousands more of elderly citizens seeking it services... This is not Project Fear, more Project Reality

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9 hours ago, hissingdwarf said:

SNP have seen a massive drop in popularity over the past 12 months and continue to slide and the Tories won't pull Scotland in, but polls can be argued until the cows come home.

National Rail is part of the issue and needs new direction as part of the renationalisation programme. It has been left to fester imo and is often a reason for issue so Labour will overhaul the whole system from track to train.

I honestly don't know enough about the Hinkley Point deal so rather than bluster, I'll take a look when I get the chance. Not a politicians answer I know, but I prefer to not bs around issues.

Regional investment banks...You are slightly wrong with the interpretation of their purpose. Yes they will enable small businesses to lend, but more importantly they will offer good finance to other agencies that are currently ham strung. EG Councils. They have a few loan schemes available to them, but the current rules imposed down mean that they're not a good choice. Regional banks will encourage inward growth and promotion. The Preston model is a great example. With a local regional investment bank behind them, they could take that model national and finally see job growth based on local investment rather than PFI or multi-nationals. Localised knowledgeable finance to support local businesses as well as offer central funding streams for local government to invest locally in projects that have been shelved for the long term due to Austerity. And the investment pots for the regional IB were costed in the last manifesto. As was every other policy. The only party with a fully funded and OBR agreement that it was all correct and ready to work in Government. Don't think the OBR agreed with any other and definitely sure the 120 billion for the dup was funded and costed. Neither is the 120 million for a sodding Brexit Party!!!!!!!!!

Still not seeing the 'Marxist' policies. Not goading mate, just that when people get to the nitty gritty of policies the headlines such as Comrade Commie Corbyn usually fall away.

There will always be some elements that some disagree with. That' s why a manifesto and policy document is an evolving document. The core principals such as NHS free from cradle to grave and the same with education aren't marxist...They're desperately needed.

Another fair response @hissingdwarf

Overhaul of the railways may appear admirable but recalling the Union driven decision making of the 1970's , it's looking like a return to the bad old days

The Regional Investment Banks will need serious funding. Where is the "risk capital" coming from? "Localised knowledgeable finance"...hints at possible corruption maybe for "preferred projects". Not goading either, but this seems to be "centralised" decision making, albeit at a local level

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@Piethagoram @Piethagoramfrom@Piethagoramfrom what is said in the court cases it states headed by the EU. Who have the final word. The fact is they dictate to us, take for example when they needed a bail out didn't ask Germany France or any one else. It fell to us in Britain because they bully us into paying. Membership fee was paid but they still came back for more. Hence the reason why we struggle financially. Then we come to the point of the UK government who bend over backwards for the EU who scaremonger which in turn the UK government do to the public. We can thrive without the EU, people are just stuck in what is current. If we never joined the EU would people want in now? Considered how many of its members want out or are in financial trouble? No. The EU are a power party and would struggle without the UK not the other way round. With the right governing party we can leave the EU and thrive. 

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Just to go back to the point of where Labour need to win...

apologies for sharing from the Torygraph and it’s behind a paywall, but the first few paragraphs are available,and says it all...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/09/26/terrifying-truth-middle-england-falling-corbynomics/

 

Regards the localised funding regional investment banks. Yep, they will need heavy funding, but let’s not forget the lies the country has been sold over the past few years. Benefit fraud for example. Everyone believes on clamping down on it. Everyone knows it exists. What most don’t realise is that just because the scum newspaper and channel 5 make a tv programme about it, doesn’t make it a massive financial drain. In fact less than 2% of the hard budget goes on this. Now compare this to lost taxes from multinationals who could make up 85% of the total hmrc income. 

Bringing it back to Brexit...It could well be a coincidence that the EU are aiming to clamp down on tax avoidance of major firms in 2019. Just around the time the Tories want us to leave the EU...

also a coincidence that at the Tory conference the most visited stall in their rather small exhibition hall is the one offering services from the Caymen Islands...says a lot really.

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7 hours ago, Bainbridge NCFC said:

@Piethagoram @Piethagoramfrom@Piethagoramfrom what is said in the court cases it states headed by the EU. Who have the final word. The fact is they dictate to us, take for example when they needed a bail out didn't ask Germany France or any one else. It fell to us in Britain because they bully us into paying. Membership fee was paid but they still came back for more. Hence the reason why we struggle financially. Then we come to the point of the UK government who bend over backwards for the EU who scaremonger which in turn the UK government do to the public. We can thrive without the EU, people are just stuck in what is current. If we never joined the EU would people want in now? Considered how many of its members want out or are in financial trouble? No. The EU are a power party and would struggle without the UK not the other way round. With the right governing party we can leave the EU and thrive. 

@Bainbridge NCFC

..."states headed by the EU".... well it's a European Court and most countries in Europe happen to be in the EU! The Court is independent of the EU, and was primarily set up by UK legal professionals.

.."they needed a bail out"?...do you mean Greece? UK is not part of the Euro and therefore paid NOTHING.

.."Membership fee was paid,,,,hence we struggle financially"...absolute TOSH.... look at the Pie Chart on link below.... EU % contribution of say nearer 1%

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29898083

Under WTO rules, net spend on tariffs likely to be more ...prices will go up, hence UK becomes poorer!

So you are willing to sacrifice the Good Friday Agreement ( so UK walks away from it's international legal obligations a la Russia) , the car manufacturing / aerospace industries , financial services industry...mass redundancies for what? Tax income from these support the NHS..so government will turn round and say sorry tough decisions need to be made  maybe...prescription charges treble, 3 week waits for GP appointments as EU doctors leave the UK..UK pensioners living abroad return to UK placing excessive burdens on the NHS

I notice you did not respond to the point about lowering of food standards..as US chlorinated chicken , hormone induced beef come on to UK supermarket shelves? To me, this is not acceptable

A no deal Brexit, the planes will stop flying, queues of lorries on M20, a Minister for Food Supply?????? What the hell is going on....is that what you wish for in "taking back control"

Just show me the "evidence" that "we can leave the EU and thrive"...PS ...there isn't any

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7 hours ago, hissingdwarf said:

Just to go back to the point of where Labour need to win...

apologies for sharing from the Torygraph and it’s behind a paywall, but the first few paragraphs are available,and says it all...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/09/26/terrifying-truth-middle-england-falling-corbynomics/

 

Regards the localised funding regional investment banks. Yep, they will need heavy funding, but let’s not forget the lies the country has been sold over the past few years. Benefit fraud for example. Everyone believes on clamping down on it. Everyone knows it exists. What most don’t realise is that just because the scum newspaper and channel 5 make a tv programme about it, doesn’t make it a massive financial drain. In fact less than 2% of the hard budget goes on this. Now compare this to lost taxes from multinationals who could make up 85% of the total hmrc income. 

Bringing it back to Brexit...It could well be a coincidence that the EU are aiming to clamp down on tax avoidance of major firms in 2019. Just around the time the Tories want us to leave the EU...

also a coincidence that at the Tory conference the most visited stall in their rather small exhibition hall is the one offering services from the Caymen Islands...says a lot really.

@hissingdwarfTorygraph article expresses an opinion but despite this, it's clutching at straws, don't think many Tory voters, when it comes to crunch time, will vote for Jeremy...as tabloid papers will flood the public again with "will the last one out, turn off the lights" "UK run by Trade Unions"

So regional investment banks will need "heavy funding"..still doesn't answer where the money will come from? a Labour government to "print money"? will be interested to see the costings for this....

Agree that real driving force for Brexit, was EU's tax avoidance directives. What has the Cayman Islands ever done for us? I would sacrifice the lot of them in terms of opening up company registers, beneficial owners etc...it would be one of the best things the EU will have done

 

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@Piethagoram

https://fullfact.org/europe/why-uk-being-asked-pay-17-billion-eu/

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4666072/amp/EU-tells-Britain-Med-migrants.html

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/7002595/brussels-fears-eu-will-be-worse-off-after-a-no-deal-brexit-than-britain-and-may-be-forced-into-signing-agreement/amp/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/european-debt-crisis-not-just-greece-drowning-debt/amp/

Have you been to the future? Do you know for sure we won't be better off? 

Are you gonna be one of them who don't accept the result as a remoaner? 

They are scared of losing us, you ever wondered why? Because they know under the right rule we can make Britain a powerful country. They see this as threat that there main contributers will be leaving. 

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49 minutes ago, Piethagoram said:

@Bainbridge NCFC

..."states headed by the EU".... well it's a European Court and most countries in Europe happen to be in the EU! The Court is independent of the EU, and was primarily set up by UK legal professionals.

.."they needed a bail out"?...do you mean Greece? UK is not part of the Euro and therefore paid NOTHING.

.."Membership fee was paid,,,,hence we struggle financially"...absolute TOSH.... look at the Pie Chart on link below.... EU % contribution of say nearer 1%

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29898083

Under WTO rules, net spend on tariffs likely to be more ...prices will go up, hence UK becomes poorer!

So you are willing to sacrifice the Good Friday Agreement ( so UK walks away from it's international legal obligations a la Russia) , the car manufacturing / aerospace industries , financial services industry...mass redundancies for what? Tax income from these support the NHS..so government will turn round and say sorry tough decisions need to be made  maybe...prescription charges treble, 3 week waits for GP appointments as EU doctors leave the UK..UK pensioners living abroad return to UK placing excessive burdens on the NHS

I notice you did not respond to the point about lowering of food standards..as US chlorinated chicken , hormone induced beef come on to UK supermarket shelves? To me, this is not acceptable

A no deal Brexit, the planes will stop flying, queues of lorries on M20, a Minister for Food Supply?????? What the hell is going on....is that what you wish for in "taking back control"

Just show me the "evidence" that "we can leave the EU and thrive"...PS ...

On to the food standards, we import food that we produce ourselves. Now for me it's common sense rather than importing why not kee local produce. Fishing supplies will be up, farmers will be up. Hence why farmers and fisherman majority voted out. The food standard will not drop, its not a proven fact. 

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35 minutes ago, Bainbridge NCFC said:

@Piethagoram

https://fullfact.org/europe/why-uk-being-asked-pay-17-billion-eu/

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4666072/amp/EU-tells-Britain-Med-migrants.html

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/7002595/brussels-fears-eu-will-be-worse-off-after-a-no-deal-brexit-than-britain-and-may-be-forced-into-signing-agreement/amp/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/european-debt-crisis-not-just-greece-drowning-debt/amp/

Have you been to the future? Do you know for sure we won't be better off? 

Are you gonna be one of them who don't accept the result as a remoaner? 

They are scared of losing us, you ever wondered why? Because they know under the right rule we can make Britain a powerful country. They see this as threat that there main contributers will be leaving. 

@Bainbridge NCFC first link is wrong...only 1.7 billion not 17 billion!!!!

UK had control over its borders, said no to migrants...so the article is an irrelevance ..EU cannot dictate

absolute TOSH from the Sun...you seriously believe this rag?

UK debt has tripled under the Conservative government...selective thinking???? Please explain by return, what are the UK economic responsibilities to Greece?

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39 minutes ago, Bainbridge NCFC said:

On to the food standards, we import food that we produce ourselves. Now for me it's common sense rather than importing why not kee local produce. Fishing supplies will be up, farmers will be up. Hence why farmers and fisherman majority voted out. The food standard will not drop, its not a proven fact. 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/28/brexit-stockpiling-food-fear-government-feed

https://www.thegrocer.co.uk/opinion/columns/leader/brexit-threat-to-our-food-standards-cannot-be-ignored/569923.article

so who will "pick" the food in the fields of Lincolnshire?

 

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@Piethagorammedia are scaremongering, government is scaremongering.

Did the UK not do well before joining the EU? 

Since EU laws were implemented how many pubs and jobs have been lost here due to this? 

We have no obligation to Greece but cause the EU made them how they turned out we were told to pay up as usual. 

We did say no but then backed into a corner by the EU and our cowardly government is too scared to stand up. But the EU bully us in that way. 

And just for your information I am NOT a tory, I am NOT a Labour fan. I don't like any government as they all lie. 

People are just too scared to be out the EU because of the scaremongering. When the vote happened people voted but people didn't like the result which brought on self sabotaging and scaremongering tactics. As we are witnessing. 

It will work, if we stand up to the EU as they are more scared to lose us then we should be to lose them. 

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