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BREXIT.....


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14 hours ago, Elite_pie said:

I find it amusing how leave voters constantly bang on about "the will of the people" based on a 2016 vote conducted on a pack of lies and scare stories from both sides, but are desperate to ignore "the will of the people" now that every poll I've seen recently suggests that now we have a bit more reality of what it will mean, most seem to see it as a  big mistake, and "the will of the people" should now be disregarded!!!!

 ps If anyone who doubts this can find any poll where the majority still want to leave, please point it out to me.

That's not how this works. You can't keep holding referendums until you get the result you want. 

14 hours ago, Piethagoram said:

@Super_Danny_Allsopp

So Falklands economy collapses as WTO tariffs go on fisheries sales!

We have a referendum where Electoral Law has been broken. 

 All I can say to your comment re Merkel is that it is pretty pathetic. Is that the best you can offer, rather than argue on any factual basis?

  

For me, the referendum was held and both sides lied and deceived, as politicians do. One side won, the other lost, as is normal.

However the reaction seen, or more specifically heard, from a vocal minority of people who are terrible losers, is getting very tiresome. They go on marches, waltz around London half naked screaming about God knows what. Obviously this occurs during a weekday, as most of them are permanently unemployed and living off the state they protest against.

 

Whilst I was on the remain side, like I assume most others who are well and truly bored stupid over all this, just want to get it done and move forward. 

 

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36 minutes ago, Super_Danny_Allsopp said:

That's not how this works. You can't keep holding referendums until you get the result you want. 

For me, the referendum was held and both sides lied and deceived, as politicians do. One side won, the other lost, as is normal.

However the reaction seen, or more specifically heard, from a vocal minority of people who are terrible losers, is getting very tiresome. They go on marches, waltz around London half naked screaming about God knows what. Obviously this occurs during a weekday, as most of them are permanently unemployed and living off the state they protest against.

 

Whilst I was on the remain side, like I assume most others who are well and truly bored stupid over all this, just want to get it done and move forward. 

 

Democracies have the right to change their minds.... The point is Electoral Law was broken...you cannot cherry pick which laws you abide with?  It's like buying a house, you agree to purchase but when you get the legal and surveyor documentation back, and you don't like the potential aftermath of going ahead, you have the right to pull out.

It's not the attitude "truly bored stupid over this".. some people care enough that this country is about to commit economic suicide and are doing their best to prevent this. Not only for ourselves but for future generations. 

@Cliftonpieand @Bainbridge NCFCstrangely remain silent, there are no rosy uplands post Brexit, not one

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Piethagoram said:

@hissingdwarf Sorry but Jeremy is abdicating responsibility to the forthcoming biggest economic disaster of our time

If there is one person I know I can confidently ignore, it's the prick that is Alastair Campbell. He encompasses everything that was wrong with Labour during his tenure and never, ever does anything which doesn't benefit him or his right wing mates. This is just another attempt to do exactly. People don't like losing their grip and fortunately Blairites such as him have certainly lost theirs in the past two years.

Regarding the Labour Brexit option...I can say so far this week I've read and seen 4 interviews so far by the top team for Labour inc Jeremy C. Keir Starmer is a totally superb choice to deal with this and I shall wait and see where the negotiations take us when the Tories move out of the bloody way. No one sane can say its gone to plan for them and they stand to tear the country apart, leaving generations to face the consequences. No amount of thumping tables by JC will change that. What will is people remembering the comments when the general election comes around...and it will soon imo.

 

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25 minutes ago, hissingdwarf said:

If there is one person I know I can confidently ignore, it's the prick that is Alastair Campbell. He encompasses everything that was wrong with Labour during his tenure and never, ever does anything which doesn't benefit him or his right wing mates. This is just another attempt to do exactly. People don't like losing their grip and fortunately Blairites such as him have certainly lost theirs in the past two years.

Regarding the Labour Brexit option...I can say so far this week I've read and seen 4 interviews so far by the top team for Labour inc Jeremy C. Keir Starmer is a totally superb choice to deal with this and I shall wait and see where the negotiations take us when the Tories move out of the bloody way. No one sane can say its gone to plan for them and they stand to tear the country apart, leaving generations to face the consequences. No amount of thumping tables by JC will change that. What will is people remembering the comments when the general election comes around...and it will soon imo.

 

@hissingdwarf Sorry but Jeremy is abdicating responsibility to the forthcoming biggest economic disaster of our time

@hissingdwarfAs of now, Alastair Campbell was involved in Labour's 3 General Election victories.... It is normal protocol, that if a Labour leader loses a General Election, then they should resign. You only have to look at Polling for suitability as the next PM, Jeremy is lagging far behind the worst PM in living memory. Labour members need to recognise they are backing a loser, as Labour needs to win over disenfranchised Tories...and that's just not happening. 

To just say Keir is doing a good job...but you seem to have forgotten his Conference speech was over written by the Shadow Chancellor's position... Which basically is saying Keir's words are just a sideline. If only Jeremy stood up to the plate and backs a Peoples Vote immediately, moderate voters will take notice. I dont want another 5 years of my life wasted with another Tory General Election victory, because Jeremy feels the EU doesnt allow State Intervention...the EU evidence points otherwise

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1 hour ago, Piethagoram said:

@hissingdwarf Sorry but Jeremy is abdicating responsibility to the forthcoming biggest economic disaster of our time

@hissingdwarfAs of now, Alastair Campbell was involved in Labour's 3 General Election victories.... It is normal protocol, that if a Labour leader loses a General Election, then they should resign. You only have to look at Polling for suitability as the next PM, Jeremy is lagging far behind the worst PM in living memory. Labour members need to recognise they are backing a loser, as Labour needs to win over disenfranchised Tories...and that's just not happening. 

To just say Keir is doing a good job...but you seem to have forgotten his Conference speech was over written by the Shadow Chancellor's position... Which basically is saying Keir's words are just a sideline. If only Jeremy stood up to the plate and backs a Peoples Vote immediately, moderate voters will take notice. I dont want another 5 years of my life wasted with another Tory General Election victory, because Jeremy feels the EU doesnt allow State Intervention...the EU evidence points otherwise

The issue with Campbell is he isn’t relevant any more. His type of politics may have been acceptable then, but fortunately they aren’t now. The country is on a forward path now which doesn’t involve his silly games and policy decisions made by the banks and media moguls.

Keir has done a fantastic job. At the moment Labour don’t need to be headlining. The Tories do. Their tearing themselves apart so why get in they way.

The probable outcome won’t change regardless of what JC says on Brexit. It wasn’t just half the country that voted in or out it was half the party. The difficulty of going down one path which might lead to an unmovable door is you lose half your support base. Let the Tories continue to stuff each other, the DUP walk away and then the EU extend negotiations for another two years, which by that time the GE will have come and gone and in all likelihood, another referendum with a result which you may find more favourable. 

Like it or not, they were voted in to get on with this so we have to stick to the will of the people of going ahead. Do I want it? Nope. Not for me or my children, but at the minute, I agree with JC that we let the Tories come back with such a bad deal people will turn to Labour to sort it.

And trust me, @Piethagoram Campbell won’t be involved in any more Labour elections. His days are well and truly buried. Odious little man!

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@hissingdwarf

@hissingdwarf A lot what you have previously written I agree with. However, you last response has to be challenged... It wasnt half the Labour party voting for Brexit, 65% yes that is 65% of Labour voted to Remain. Like it or not, the City of London is the major sector driving tax revenues. Failure to secure Single market / Customs union status puts those tax revenues at risk. 

Your armageddon wishes for a Tory self destruction, is not acceptable to the damage that Brexit will do to this country. Labour at the moment is not "leading the debate" and it's totally unacceptable that the British People will back the current Labour stance that "we can do a better job", without any level of detail provided!!!!! as to why.

Corbyn's interview with Der Spiegel is the final straw. There was an opportunity to reinforce what was decided at the Labour Conference 2018..but no, he chose to make public his own thoughts..which naturally is at odds with what Conference decided. It's about electability..and Corbyn has deceived his own members (81% of Labour membership surveyed support a public vote on the deal.)

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Piethagoram said:

@hissingdwarf

@hissingdwarf A lot what you have previously written I agree with. However, you last response has to be challenged... It wasnt half the Labour party voting for Brexit, 65% yes that is 65% of Labour voted to Remain. Like it or not, the City of London is the major sector driving tax revenues. Failure to secure Single market / Customs union status puts those tax revenues at risk. 

Your armageddon wishes for a Tory self destruction, is not acceptable to the damage that Brexit will do to this country. Labour at the moment is not "leading the debate" and it's totally unacceptable that the British People will back the current Labour stance that "we can do a better job", without any level of detail provided!!!!! as to why.

Corbyn's interview with Der Spiegel is the final straw. There was an opportunity to reinforce what was decided at the Labour Conference 2018..but no, he chose to make public his own thoughts..which naturally is at odds with what Conference decided. It's about electability..and Corbyn has deceived his own members (81% of Labour membership surveyed support a public vote on the deal.)

 

 

 

A couple of things....

They aren’t my political wishes. I campaigned every day the whole of the referendum. Every single day on the doorstep, along with others. And it got ...a 71% Out vote in my area. 

My wishes for the Tory party...well let’s remove them totally. You misunderstand my point. Labour can not change the narrative at the moment. Politics and especially Brexit is all about the optics to any given crowd. The Tories were chosen to lead us into Brexit and until they crash and burn, Labour can’t be seen to be undermining the whole thing until the time is right, and that isn’t yet. JC isn’t a total committed remainer. In fact probably slightly the opposite, but until the current government crash, either by their own hand or by GE then the whole party has to show respect for the result.

The opposite to that is the conversation about not liking the result and trying again. Well we do that fairly regularly in democratic countries. It’s called elections. The point being which ever way one person wants to view it, the next has just as good points from their perspective.

We both agree Brexit will tarnish this country for generations. We both would like another bite at the apple, with the hope that the country will come to its senses.

The difference is I don’t think we’re far enough down the track yet for people to see the real damage it will cause. But we’re getting there now and soon the balance should tip. It’s no good going for another ref to only win by a small majority or you have the same argument again. People need to see the real consequences of their actions. That or a general election where hopefully people will choose a different tack for Brexit or even a rerun in a different light.

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1 hour ago, hissingdwarf said:

A couple of things....

They aren’t my political wishes. I campaigned every day the whole of the referendum. Every single day on the doorstep, along with others. And it got ...a 71% Out vote in my area. 

My wishes for the Tory party...well let’s remove them totally. You misunderstand my point. Labour can not change the narrative at the moment. Politics and especially Brexit is all about the optics to any given crowd. The Tories were chosen to lead us into Brexit and until they crash and burn, Labour can’t be seen to be undermining the whole thing until the time is right, and that isn’t yet. JC isn’t a total committed remainer. In fact probably slightly the opposite, but until the current government crash, either by their own hand or by GE then the whole party has to show respect for the result.

The opposite to that is the conversation about not liking the result and trying again. Well we do that fairly regularly in democratic countries. It’s called elections. The point being which ever way one person wants to view it, the next has just as good points from their perspective.

We both agree Brexit will tarnish this country for generations. We both would like another bite at the apple, with the hope that the country will come to its senses.

The difference is I don’t think we’re far enough down the track yet for people to see the real damage it will cause. But we’re getting there now and soon the balance should tip. It’s no good going for another ref to only win by a small majority or you have the same argument again. People need to see the real consequences of their actions. That or a general election where hopefully people will choose a different tack for Brexit or even a rerun in a different light.

@hissingdwarf"Labour can’t be seen to be undermining the whole thing until the time is right, and that isn’t yet."...BUT the referendum has been shown to have been influenced by the breaking of Electoral Law...and Corbyn stands by and does nothing? One cannot cherry pick which laws you abide by!!!

"People need to see the real consequences of their actions."...Labour cant allow that to get that far.... like a technical default on 29 March and leave without a deal... Labour is supposed to look after the most vulnerable in our society...and in no way is it demonstrating that it is doing that now, with its Brexit stance.

 

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14 minutes ago, Piethagoram said:

@Magic magpie..... The Irish Border is the impossible problem to solve, freedom of movement and customs union enshrined in international law.... will the UK do a Russia and break an international agreement to satisfy brexiteers???

I don’t follow politics because as a young lad my grandad said politics and religion are two very passionate subjects so I try to know what’s happening because it will affect me. 

What you have just said I know nothing about if I’m honest and honestly say I’ve no idea .. I’m ashamed to say. 

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@Magic magpieIn a nutshell, Good Friday Agreement for whole of Ireland, enshrines freedom of movement of people ( i.e.no visas) and Customs Union ( no tariffs and minimal checks on movement of goods)...so that is current UK position in Single market and Customs Union.... Mrs May proposes ending Freedom of Movement...therefore visas more than likely ( will affect us if we need to travel to EU by needing and paying for a visa) and ending Customs Union...means goods will need to be inspected at ports...with documentation like certificates of origin to be checked, vet checks and certificates to prove animals exported havent been fed on GM foodmeal etc, so that animal welfare standards have been adhered too

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1 hour ago, Piethagoram said:

@Magic magpieIn a nutshell, Good Friday Agreement for whole of Ireland, enshrines freedom of movement of people ( i.e.no visas) and Customs Union ( no tariffs and minimal checks on movement of goods)...so that is current UK position in Single market and Customs Union.... Mrs May proposes ending Freedom of Movement...therefore visas more than likely ( will affect us if we need to travel to EU by needing and paying for a visa) and ending Customs Union...means goods will need to be inspected at ports...with documentation like certificates of origin to be checked, vet checks and certificates to prove animals exported havent been fed on GM foodmeal etc, so that animal welfare standards have been adhered too

Blimey that’s a lot to take in no wonder pilots is a mind field  

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8 hours ago, Piethagoram said:

@hissingdwarf"Labour can’t be seen to be undermining the whole thing until the time is right, and that isn’t yet."...BUT the referendum has been shown to have been influenced by the breaking of Electoral Law...and Corbyn stands by and does nothing? One cannot cherry pick which laws you abide by!!!

"People need to see the real consequences of their actions."...Labour cant allow that to get that far.... like a technical default on 29 March and leave without a deal... Labour is supposed to look after the most vulnerable in our society...and in no way is it demonstrating that it is doing that now, with its Brexit stance.

 

I don’t disagree with the electoral law parts, but it’s not the LP role to impose the law. That’s the job of the electoral commission who are as toothless as Notts at the minute. 

Pat the end of the day, I don’t disagree that Brexit is divisive and a different role could have been played by Labour, but we are where we are. The Lib Dem’s tried that and got...exactly nothing for it.

The chosen path is the one we walk, but I personally don’t think a no deal,will come on the 29th March. It’s in everyone’s interests, especially the EU, to ensure a deal is fundamentally sound and if the Tories can’t get one by then, I suspect a GE will be called and an extension will be agreed to review and even stop the whole damn thing.

And your point to @Magic magpie about Ireland is vital. I, along with millions of others, wait to see if the Good Friday Agreement is broken or the DUP walk away.

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@hissingdwarfSorry, not being antagonistic, but I expect The Labour Party to stand up and say the law has been broken. It is a complete and utter cop out to not even raise it by the Labour Front Bench in Parliament

I don't expect a GE to be called, as Tory MP's will want to hang on to their seats as long as possible. Ireland settlement is vital but cannot see it being resolved...EU will not compromise on freedom of movement and Customs Union.

Going back to an earlier post, referring to Alaistair Campbell. Labour  has moved to the left but crucially the country has not. I am old enough to remember Michael Foot's disaster and with the worst government in living memory, it's not OK to continue blindly supporting the Corbyn vision. The opinion polls should have Labour 20 points ahead , the fact that they don't speaks volumes. Jeremy is continuing to pursue to win the UKIP vote at the expense of the mainstream social democratic views many hold within the party.

 

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2 hours ago, Piethagoram said:

@hissingdwarfSorry, not being antagonistic, but I expect The Labour Party to stand up and say the law has been broken. It is a complete and utter cop out to not even raise it by the Labour Front Bench in Parliament

I don't expect a GE to be called, as Tory MP's will want to hang on to their seats as long as possible. Ireland settlement is vital but cannot see it being resolved...EU will not compromise on freedom of movement and Customs Union.

Going back to an earlier post, referring to Alaistair Campbell. Labour  has moved to the left but crucially the country has not. I am old enough to remember Michael Foot's disaster and with the worst government in living memory, it's not OK to continue blindly supporting the Corbyn vision. The opinion polls should have Labour 20 points ahead , the fact that they don't speaks volumes. Jeremy is continuing to pursue to win the UKIP vote at the expense of the mainstream social democratic views many hold within the party.

 

Campbell and the dodgy deals of New Labour and Nwo-Liberalism is gone and buried thankfully.

When Jeremy came to leader then people could quite rightly compare to the Michael Foot situation. Since then we have had another General Election, which, if it had ran for another week, would have returned a Labour Government.

Let's be clear on a few facts. At the last GE Jerem Corbyn increased the Labour vote share more than any other leader of the party since 1945. More than Blair etc...

What people forget is the power of connecting with the younger generation. I hear from young and old supporters everyday on the doorstep and have heard and batted back all the JC arguments before from the older voter...Used to vote Labour but he's too left wing etc...When you breakdown their argument they usually see they've swallowed newspaper headlines rather than looking at the Manifesto.

Brexit wise, Yes, it should have been raised more about breaking the electoral rules, but nothing would come of it. Been there, done that.

Moving the country to the understanding that Labour is different now is a big task, but one we take on with realish. When Blair was in power, finding clear blue water between us and the Tories was difficult and thats why he won. The middle. What people need to realise is that things they feel are left wing, aren't left wing to the younger generation. 

To be blunt.The older generation are struggling to get to polling day or are dying off and millions of disgruntled of politically aware (more so than any other generation before them) are turning eighteen and have a voice. That will be the difference. Of course I would like a 20 point lead at the mo, but for people to leave the middle ground, it takes time and convincing. Stick with an idea and it will work. I remember when JC was elected and I came out for him. My good friend @Fan of Big Tonehad many discussions with me regarding my support and him thinking I'd stepped off the deep end and he wouldn't win a coconut at Goose Fair, never mind a GE. The last GE showed that progress is there and the Manifesto stands up to scrutiny.

Right, I'm off to my second canvass of the day! Cheers.

 

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4 hours ago, hissingdwarf said:

Campbell and the dodgy deals of New Labour and Nwo-Liberalism is gone and buried thankfully.

When Jeremy came to leader then people could quite rightly compare to the Michael Foot situation. Since then we have had another General Election, which, if it had ran for another week, would have returned a Labour Government.

Let's be clear on a few facts. At the last GE Jerem Corbyn increased the Labour vote share more than any other leader of the party since 1945. More than Blair etc...

What people forget is the power of connecting with the younger generation. I hear from young and old supporters everyday on the doorstep and have heard and batted back all the JC arguments before from the older voter...Used to vote Labour but he's too left wing etc...When you breakdown their argument they usually see they've swallowed newspaper headlines rather than looking at the Manifesto.

Brexit wise, Yes, it should have been raised more about breaking the electoral rules, but nothing would come of it. Been there, done that.

Moving the country to the understanding that Labour is different now is a big task, but one we take on with realish. When Blair was in power, finding clear blue water between us and the Tories was difficult and thats why he won. The middle. What people need to realise is that things they feel are left wing, aren't left wing to the younger generation. 

To be blunt.The older generation are struggling to get to polling day or are dying off and millions of disgruntled of politically aware (more so than any other generation before them) are turning eighteen and have a voice. That will be the difference. Of course I would like a 20 point lead at the mo, but for people to leave the middle ground, it takes time and convincing. Stick with an idea and it will work. I remember when JC was elected and I came out for him. My good friend @Fan of Big Tonehad many discussions with me regarding my support and him thinking I'd stepped off the deep end and he wouldn't win a coconut at Goose Fair, never mind a GE. The last GE showed that progress is there and the Manifesto stands up to scrutiny.

Right, I'm off to my second canvass of the day! Cheers.

 

@hissingdwarf Hillary Clinton got a greater vote share than Trump, and she didnt win. Basically Labour increased the vote share in its heartlands, you can only win by taking the centre marginals

Its unacceptable for Labour to stand idly by re breaking of electoral law...It shows a complete moral vacuum

At the end of the day, the public dont think JC is Prime Ministerial material... and Labour's young (most young voters are in favour of Remain) will turn on Corbyn for being the wrong side of history

I may have outdone @hissingdwarf for rabidness!!!

 

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