PL Financial Fair Play Rules.

[KB1862]

FFP was brought in to help the "elite" to a certain extent. They still have to follow the rules and some are scared to even go near it, hence the quiet transfer window, but it also benefits the bigger clubs as @Robbie has highlighted regarding bigger clubs having the better opportunities to buy the best players. 

There are clubs out there, irrelevant of league standings, who can sell out stadiums week after week after week but still won't benefit from this because despite revenue being boosted due to sell out stadiums, a lack of cup runs and European football won't increase revenue like it would to teams like Man City who have a history of failing to sell out every week. Hence the name "emptyhad" as the joke went. Obviously that's all changed now because of the success they've been having over the past few seasons making many people switch allegiances becoming glory supporters. 

I can see with this new rule change that, as unfortunate as it will be, more clubs will fall in to the situation that the likes of Everton have found themselves in with points deductions. It'll eventually lead to teams being hit with fines and points deductions more regularly and then ultimately a lack of competition during the season with the gap becoming wider and wider.  

[Robbie]

Agree @KB1862. Being in European Competitions gives those top clubs a big advantage to all the other clubs as far as finance is concerned, TV money, prize money, world marketing of their name and goods, that even before they get  all the same by ling runs in the domestic cups.

I learned on Google today that it is probable an extra place in the Champions League for the fifth placed team in the Premier league will be given in season 2024/25. (They call it a Uefa performance spot) + 6th place for Europa League and a place for the FA cup winner.

Then you have another spot for the Europa Conference league too

So all the rich clubs will be more or less guaranteed a European spot every year This is basically a Super League by the back door.

And combined with the FFP changes, it basically cements their dominance for the foreseeable future.

More info here regarding new Champions League format.

https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/0268-12157d69ce2d-9f011c70f6fa-1000--new-format-for-champions-league-post-2024-everything-you-ne/

 

[KB1862]

20 hours ago, Robbie said:

I learned on Google today that it is probable an extra place in the Champions League for the fifth placed team in the Premier league will be given in season 2024/25. (They call it a Uefa performance spot) + 6th place for Europa League and a place for the FA cup winner.

Yeah I read about this when they first announced reformatting the UCL. They basically want teams that have history and reputation to be in the competition more. There was a lot of fans angry and annoyed at this proposition. Quite rightly too. Take Chelsea for example, since Abramovich came in in 2003, they've been a regular feature in the Champions League and have won it twice. Even if they position how they are currently, they could still earn a place due to history.

I think that idea may have been squashed but essentially this is exactly what UEFA opposed about the Super League so essentially if they were to go that route and stick with the idea, they're going to be hypocrites. 

Personally, I think the Champions League should be what it states CHAMPIONS. They have a UEFA Coefficient Standings so why not utilise it? The champions of the top 10 nations, based on the coefficient league, play out a league or even a straight knockout format rather than having 4 or 5 different clubs being able to enter it. 

Also, if you get eliminated from the UCL, teams should be out of Europe all together. None of this nonsense about relegated to the Europa League than relegated to Europa Conference League. Once you're out of your European competition you have "earned" the right to play in, that's it over done. 

All these things put in place by UEFA, the FA etc. they make it sound beneficial to the game for everyone but read between the lines, it only increases the dominance of the already elite and keeps them there for a long while, as you've pointed out. 

[KB1862]

FFP was enough to worry teams it seems. I'm guessing that given the Everton points deduction, Forest and Everton facing punishment as well as Man City being taken to a hearing was enough to make clubs think twice before splashing the cash. 

[Robbie]

They say just £100 million spent in a month. That is still an amount that teams outside the the Premier league can only dream about.

The way the media say  'just only'. It's as if they are disappointed.

 

[KB1862]

@Robbie 20 teams. £100million. £5million per team. I'm sure teams outside of the Premier League spend that sort of money. 

Considering how much players cost these days and what some clubs pay, it really is a small amount. Enzo, Rice & Grealish cost more alone than 20 teams in the Premier League spent during the January transfer window. 

[Robbie]

2 hours ago, KB1862 said:

@Robbie 20 teams. £100million. £5million per team. I'm sure teams outside of the Premier League spend that sort of money. 

Considering how much players cost these days and what some clubs pay, it really is a small amount. Enzo, Rice & Grealish cost more alone than 20 teams in the Premier League spent during the January transfer window. 

@KB1862 £100 million is out of sight for the vast majority of clubs in the football pyramid. That's what a pyramid is. The point at the top with the vast majority of wealth and the mass of clubs around the Country all the way to the bottom of the pyramid who have a few thousand pounds if they are lucky.

[KB1862]

@Robbie Course it's out of sight for a majority of clubs but also take into account that Wrexham last season, in the National League, could outspend some League 1 clubs and were probably capable of keeping up with some Championship clubs in terms of spending.

But factor in Stadiums, TV Rights, Competitions, Cup runs. There's a reason why Premier League clubs have millions compared to lower down the pyramid who have thousands. Working their way up, having good cup runs and being able to improve facilities has massive financial gain. 

Bournemouth beat Italian clubs to some transfers. AC Milan were one of those. A club like AC Milan who were/are European giants aren't able to compete with a team like Bournemouth financially. 

Considering how much is able to be paid by Premier League clubs, £100 million is a relatively low number still. 

 

[Robbie]

So now another Premier League Club has been docked 4 points for breaking the unfair Financial Fair play rules. Now it's the Cub across the Trent.

NFFC came up from the Championship, had several loan players that they had to replace. They bought 20 odd players costing around £150 million, a figure that equates to buying 2 players for a top six club 

Then they had to sell their most valuable player to try to keep within the rules. Something that a top six team won't have to do.

How can a club that has spent years outside the PL, compete with other clubs in that league if those clubs have become much richer and can easily stay within the £115million loss over 3 years even if they spent a £billion over that time?

This judgement has implications for all EFL clubs who haven't been fortunate to get parachute payments, but are promoted from the Championship and need to spend money to compete even with the bottom half PL clubs, never mind the top half. And being able to compete with the top six, forget it.

There needs to be a cap on spending to make the PL and EFL more competitive.

[Ohh Tommy Johnson]

I agree that the system needs to change otherwise the same 6 teams will swap places season on season.  The thing is the top 7 or 8 teams don't care are and increasingly unlikely to get involved in relegations and therefore care even less.  They are more worried about not being competitive in Europe, so will oppose anything that impacts that.  This is where the new regulator may make a difference, however, from what I have seen today, it is unlikely.  It seems one of their remits is to support the competitiveness of the PL. In rugby some teams chose not to go for promotion, I can see that happening in football unless the rules are changed.  The PL in rugby has overseen the demise of 3 clubs this year, and quite probably more over the summer, I would hope football won't make the same mistake, but with such high stakes I can't see that happening.  The advantage is that the EFL is a vibrant competition in itself, whereas the Championship in Rugby isn't,

On our neighbours predicament; I have no sympathy at all.  They knew the rules and broke them.  If you were a Luton fan and they got relegated whilst sticking to the rules, you would be pretty hacked off.  Getting promoted with loan players was always going to be a risk as replacing them was bound to lead to this situation.  A better run club wouldn't have had those issues.  

[Robbie]

@Ohh Tommy Johnson I agree with most of what you say.

I've noticed Everton and Forest supporters arguing the toss on X about which one should have more or less points deducted while they ignore the elephant in the room, Man City, who continue to win this and that while still having outstanding 115 FFP issues that are supposed to be in the process of investigation.

The fact that the government is going  to appointment an independent regulatory body, demonstrates that the current FFP rules are grossly unfair.

[Ohh Tommy Johnson]

@Robbie I agree the rules are hugely unfair... but they weren't hidden or brought in at the last minute.  Luton have stuck to them (being in the same situation as Forest) and may get relegated, whilst Forest who broke the rules may have stayed up by virtue of breaking them.  If you agree to play be the rules, you should stick to them.  At least if they stay up they will have done so by accepting their punishment (although I think it will be halved to 2points which is hardly a disincentive).  All that said, the rules do need changing though to something that truly levels the filed and protects clubs from certain owners... I think the Government sees some votes in there, hence the sudden speed that they are moving,  This has been on the cards for years, but nothing done.  Still, any move to a better place is welcome.

Man City should be relegated out of the League structure and into oblivion, if those charges are proved.  115 violations is really extracting the urine. They should have every trophy they won during the period in question removed too.  Failure to do so will destroy the integrity of the competition in the same way that Saracen's cheating ruined the Rugby Premiership, but Man City will be given a £100 fine and be allowed to carry on, they know it, we know it and so does everybody else. Newcastle will be watching closely and working out if they can flout the rules too.

[Robbie]

News today that Leicester City are going to be investigated for breaking FFP rules. It's just another club outside of the big six, trying to compete with the football aristocrats which is proving very difficult with these unfair FFP rules.

 

[Ohh Tommy Johnson]

I see their defence is 'you can't charge us as we aren't in the PL', and their defence against producing a business plan (it may have been something else, but that isn't important) is that they were in the PL last season.  I think they will be starting off next year with a points deficit assuming they get promoted, and then may be in problems with the EFL when they inevitably get relegated again.  

The rules do need changing, but that doesn't excuse flouting those that exist currently.  Change the rules, don't break them.

[Robbie]

@Ohh Tommy Johnson I agree that Man City should be relegated from the PL. I believe they should be demoted to the Northern Counties League with a cap put on their transfers and wages so that they won't be getting promoted every season and back in the PL in 9 years.

But if course that won't happen. It'll be no more than a demotion to the Championship, a fine & they'll be back in the PL via the playoffs the next season, even if they get an additional points deduction to start with.

[Ohh Tommy Johnson]

@RobbieI totally agree.  I expect they will just get a fine anyway.... but can you imagine Cammel Laird 1907 or Holker Old Boys turning up at the Emirates?  That would be so funny!!

[Robbie]

1 minute ago, Ohh Tommy Johnson said:

@RobbieI totally agree.  I expect they will just get a fine anyway.... but can you imagine Cammel Laird 1907 or Holker Old Boys turning up at the Emirates?  That would be so funny!!

In front of a 45,000 crowd

[Robbie]

So it has been announced that Forest are going to appeal their recent points deduction of four points. This means their appeal could be decided after the season's end with three possibilities, more points deducted, points reinstated or points left the same.

A decision on a further points deduction for Everton is expected soon too, so if Everton get a further points deduction and if they appeal that, the relegation places could be decided after the season has ended.

Is this how a league season should be decided in supposedly the best league in the World?

If anything, points deducted should be applied at the start of a season, not at the end of one.

[Robbie]

Breaking News.

Everton docked a further 2 points for breaking FFP rules for the second time. They go down a place in the PL table.

Looks like the relegation battle could be decided by the result of appeals to the points deductions of Everton and Forest.

And meanwhile, nothing decided about Man City's 116 charges of breaking FFP rules.

 

[Robbie]

BREAKING: Premier League clubs have agreed in principle to introduce new financial rules.

They voted today to progress with new squad cost ratio rules to replace current Profitability and Sustainability Rules..

There would be a transition period so points reductions under existing rules would still apply next season. 

Of course these new rules have to be accepted at an annual general meeting in June, however these new rules would still benefit the rich clubs.

 

[Robbie]

When the smaller clubs in the Premier League are forced to sell their best players to remain on the right side of the FFP rules, they shouldn't sell to the top six PL clubs, they should sell to teams either in Europe or Worldwide. 

If the top six are starved of the best talent, the PL would slowly become more equal once again.

[KB1862]

On the 'Two Pints Podcast with Will Mellor and Ralf Little', they mentioned the 115 charges hanging over Manchester City and I feel like they had it bang on the money. Ralf Little said that they won't ever be punished for these charges to which Will Mellor responded that it would be unfair for City to go unpunished while Everton and Forest have both faced punishment for breaching the rules. 

I'm in agreement with both points made and I think the only time City will finally be found guilty of their charges is when they introduce the luxury tax ruling meaning that all they'll have to do is a pay a fine and it'll be done rather than seeing them face a points deduction which would really affect them. In short, punishing the lower teams and allowing the elite to stay at the top. 

The thing that annoys me about these situations is the fact that they are so blatantly allowing the elite to run the show and get away with anything and everything and they aren't even hiding the "corruption" anymore. 

[Robbie]

Update.

Aston Villa have proposed to increase the amount of money clubs can lose under PSR rules in the Premier League over a 3-year period from £105m to £135m. This is set to get the green light in today's meeting.