I thought I'd write this Topic before it became Out of Date, due to England being Knocked out of the Euro's. But the badge on the ENGLAND Shirt is Wrong. Now before People start saying you're Barmy or Go and put your Tin foil Hat On, Let Me Explain.

I'm a Bit of an History Buff and one of my Main Interests is Heraldry, and being an Artist (who has Sold Art, but It wasn't my full time Job) the Designs that have been Drawn and Painted over the Centuries has been an Interesting Hobby of Mine.

Now I'm Not Going To Bore You To Tears by giving you along Drawn out History of Heraldry. Just to say that Heraldry was used for the Identification of Knights in Battle and who was on who's side. Each Knight had a Particular Design on his Shield  and Coat of Arms which showed his Loyalty to His King or Lord. And the Animals emblazoned on their Shields looked a lot Different to the real thing.

So the Real England Badge is what you see on his Majesty's Coat of Arms in the First and Fourth Quarters of the Royal Shield  the Colouring is as Follows. I'll write the Colours in Non Heraldic Wording.

A Shield with a Red Background with Three Golden Lions  Walking Looking Outwards. However the Three Lions were called Leopards. Which looked nothing like the Real Animal, and resembled the Lion much More. They were renamed as Lions by Richard I (the Lion Heart) and these  Golden Lions on a Red Background have been used by all Sovereigns since that time. Which means the Current England Badge of Blue Lions on a White Background is Wrong. The Flowers on the Present Badge are the Red and White Tudor Roses which were brought together by Henry VII from the Red Rose of Lancashire and the White Rose of Yorkshire, after the War of The Roses. 

Now if You're still Awake, it's a good Job the Lion Heart Changed the name. Frank Skinner Sing Three Leopards On His Shirt, Doesn't Quite Have the Same Ring To It.

 

If my memory of history serves me right, Henry the 8th was gifted lions that he kept near the towers of London.

@JIMBO

Yes I believe you're right in fact Lions were kept at the Tower Zoo for around 700 years, two well preserved Lion Skulls were dug up at the Tower in the 1930's and due to Modern Carbon Dating were said to have lived there in around the 1480's ?

Nice to see a thread about English history @Wheelbarrow repair man good one.

I must admit that I love history myself, but I never knew the lions were actually leopards in the middle ages.

I just researched this on Google, and I understand in the middle ages they called lions, leopards when they were lying down, and leopards, lions when they were rearing or rampant.

As you said, it wouldn't sound right as leopard heart would it?

@Robbie

Well I could have gone on, and on and on and on and on about Heraldry and then everybody on PON would Shout As One S.T.F. Up. That's why I kept it to a few Sentences. The term Leopards was used by Early Norman Kings and Arms attributed to them show Two and Not  Three such Creatures. Early artists Probably never saw a Leopard and had to produce Art work based on word of Mouth, as were a number of Animals. A Heraldic Tiger for instance looked Nothing like the Animal that is Popular with People Today. Dolphins Whales and other Creatures came under then same Umbrella and early depictions are quite Funny to look at.

I felt a little slow reading this, I won't be ashamed to admit. It's a lot to take in. ????

I didn't know that lions were called leopards, so that took me a few takes to get. I can't imagine a world where a leopard was a black dotted large cat-like creature. Especially in comparison to lions which are a lot more furious. I mean, you wouldn't want to be around either but if it came to a fight - we stand little chance of survival against a lion.

Thankfully, we are known as the 'Three Lions' as it makes for a better coat of arms.

@Chris

Lions were sort of First recorded in Roman Times and they ranged over a more Vast area than today. In the Present day there are also only two types of Lions the African and the Asian. And as many early Artist never saw a real Lion, they went on descriptions of Merchants such as a Cat like Creature, so Lions, Leopards, Panthers, Cheetahs  were all lumped together and Drawn or Painted in a very similar way. And for some reason the Leopard was considered a Cowardly Creature, so King Richard renamed the Creatures on his Great Seal and Shield Lions. His nickname of Lion Heart may have also had something to do with it.    

 

On 26/06/2024 at 17:15, Wheelbarrow repair man said:

I thought I'd write this Topic before it became Out of Date, due to England being Knocked out of the Euro's. But the badge on the ENGLAND Shirt is Wrong. Now before People start saying you're Barmy or Go and put your Tin foil Hat On, Let Me Explain.

I'm a Bit of an History Buff and one of my Main Interests is Heraldry, and being an Artist (who has Sold Art, but It wasn't my full time Job) the Designs that have been Drawn and Painted over the Centuries has been an Interesting Hobby of Mine.

Now I'm Not Going To Bore You To Tears by giving you along Drawn out History of Heraldry. Just to say that Heraldry was used for the Identification of Knights in Battle and who was on who's side. Each Knight had a Particular Design on his Shield  and Coat of Arms which showed his Loyalty to His King or Lord. And the Animals emblazoned on their Shields looked a lot Different to the real thing.

So the Real England Badge is what you see on his Majesty's Coat of Arms in the First and Fourth Quarters of the Royal Shield  the Colouring is as Follows. I'll write the Colours in Non Heraldic Wording.

A Shield with a Red Background with Three Golden Lions  Walking Looking Outwards. However the Three Lions were called Leopards. Which looked nothing like the Real Animal, and resembled the Lion much More. They were renamed as Lions by Richard I (the Lion Heart) and these  Golden Lions on a Red Background have been used by all Sovereigns since that time. Which means the Current England Badge of Blue Lions on a White Background is Wrong. The Flowers on the Present Badge are the Red and White Tudor Roses which were brought together by Henry VII from the Red Rose of Lancashire and the White Rose of Yorkshire, after the War of The Roses. 

Now if You're still Awake, it's a good Job the Lion Heart Changed the name. Frank Skinner Sing Three Leopards On His Shirt, Doesn't Quite Have the Same Ring To It.

 

On 26/06/2024 at 18:06, JIMBO said:

If my memory of history serves me right, Henry the 8th was gifted lions that he kept near the towers of London.

i never knew either of these, i dont think history is taught very well. you learn about the things that sort of brainwashes you. such as world war 1 and 2, the kings and queens of england, the american cival war.

@liampie

I've always Enjoyed both History and Art. Kings and Queens are a Major part of our History, I enjoy reading about their Lives, but also the time they Ruled England/Britain and the Prominent People who came from each Monarchs Reign. I read many Books about the Romans  Vikings Anglo Saxons, how they lived their Political  Structure Religions Gods and Goddesses  plus their Myths and Legends.

And while reading all this their Art and Crafts from  Sword and Shield and other Arms making, down to Pots Pans Jugs and Vases, also came to the fore. Heraldry came about so each Soldier and Each Knight could be identified in the heat of Battle and which side was which. The Romans had their Imperial Eagles, the Vikings their Long Ships and the Anglo Saxons fought in War Paint, made from Wode and Dyes from Berries Leaves Clay and other Natural Ingredients. I'll Stop Now Before I Totally Bore  You To Tears.

@Wheelbarrow repair man

It always fascinated me why they include Lady Jane Grey in the list of Monarchs of England, but she is never referred to as Queen Jane, she wasn't crowned, but she was proclaimed Queen by the Privy Council & ruled for nine days till she was deposed by Mary, daughter of Henry VIII.

Edward VIII was never crowned but he is still referred to as King Edward VIII.

@Robbie

The Reason why Jane Grey was only referred to as Lady Jane was the fact she was Edward VI cousin and Not a member of the Royal Family as a Child of Henry VIII would have been. Where as Edward VIII was Prince of Wales and the Heir to King George V.  And was Pronounced King on the Death of His Father. The same happened to Edward V  heir to Edward IV,  ( one of the Princes in the Tower) who ruled as King for two months, before being over thrown by his Uncle Richard Duke of Gloucester who became Richard III (The King in the Car Park).

My favourite lion was The Red Lion in Alfreton, Sadly no longer open.

@super_ram

My Favourite Pub (when I was old enough to drink) was called the White Lion, in  Long Eaton. Went back for the first time in 40 years a few Weeks ago. Obviously it's changed in that time, but Not For The Better In My Opinion. A once thriving Pub, it's now one of those  Stale Plastic Oldie Worldly  Real Ale Pubs, with No Atmosphere and very little going for it.