The G.O.A.T The Managers

[Wheelbarrow repair man]

After writing a piece regarding the G.O.A.T Player. I thought I'd give Fans the Chance to name their G.O.A.T Manager.

I have only included Managers who have Managed in the  Football Leagues of the English Game as I'm Not an follower of the European Leagues.

So here goes with my Selection. Bill Shankly, Bob Paisley, Matt Busby, Alf Ramsey, Brian Clough Bobby Robson, Arsene Wenger, Alex Ferguson Dave Basset and Jimmy Sirrel. It isn't all about Winning Trophies but what a Manager brought to a Club.

Bill Shankly. Turned Liverpool around pulled the Club up by it's Bootlaces and began building the foundations of the Liverpool Winning Machine. Won 3 Division 1 tiles FA Cup and UEFA Cup.

Bob Paisley. Continued the Work started by Shankly and excelled his Trophy Haul was much bigger than his Predecessor . First Manager to win 4 titles in a Row in the English Top League. So Pep ain't Unique.

Matt Busby. After almost perishing in the Munich Air Disaster and losing most of the Busby Babes in that Tragedy, he rebuilt Manchester United and his Team became the First English Winners of the European Cup.

Alf Ramsey. The Only England Manager to Win The World Cup. Won 9 (3 shared) Home Championship Victories as England Manager .First Division Second Division and Third Division ( South) Winner as a Manager  with Ipswich Town

Brian Clough. Old Big 'Ead himself. Took two mediocre Footballing Sides Derby and Forest and made them into League Champions and twice European Champions with Forest.

Bobby Robson England Manager  Success in England, Holland, Portugal and Spain.

Arsene Wenger Managed the Arsenal Team of the Invincibles when the Gunners went undefeated through out the 2003/04 Season Despite much  success in England never won a European Trophy.

Alex Ferguson. The Manager with most Trophies on this list. Winning titles in both England and Scotland.

Dave Bassett. No Major Trophies. But 7 Promotions. And took Wimbledon FC from the Fourth to the First Division in 5 years.

Jimmy Sirrel. Another Manager who took an unfancied Notts County  from the Bottom League to the Top League. (Though he did have stint at Sheffield United, in between. And also Designed the Sheffield Untied Club Badge)

Edited June 11 by Wheelbarrow repair man

[Robbie]

Some good choices there @Wheelbarrow repair man and I couldn't argue against any one of them being on a shortlist 

I would like to add a few more such as a famous innovative Manager who had great success with Huddersfield & Arsenal in the late 1920s & Early 1930s & his name was Herbert Chapman 

Here is a summary of his major achievements as a Manager.

Although he did not win any major honours as a player, as a manager Chapman won a Southern League title in 1908–09 with Northampton Town, four Football League titles (1923–24 and 1924–25 with Huddersfield Town, 1930–31 and 1932–33 with Arsenal) and two FA Cups (1921–22 with Huddersfield Town, 1929–30 with Arsenal) After is premature death in 1934 his Arsenal side dominated the rest of the 1930s.

I think Bill Nicholson should be on the shortlist too. Bill Managed Tottenham Hotspur from 1958 to 1974, built a great side that won honours, then rebuilt the side to take even more honours including European honours.

Here are Bill's successes at Spurs.

Division 1 Champions.

1960–61

FA Cup Winners.

1960–61, 1961-62, 1966–67

Football League Cup: 

1970–71, 1972–73

FA Charity Shield: 

1961, 1962, 1967 (shared)

UEFA Cup: 

1971–72, runner up: 1973-74

European Cup Winners' Cup: 

1962–63

Anglo-Italian League Cup: 1971

A third choice would be Dave Bowen who Managed Northampton Town and got them promoted 3 times from the fourth to the first division in just 5 seasons.

When I am judging the merits of a Manager I look at how they have been able to build teams from scratch and have the skill and knowhow to rebuild sides or have similar success at other Clubs too.

I haven't included Managers in the PL since 2010 because the advent of riches has made the work of Managers at rich clubs that much Easier 

My Short list for the best Manager of all time in the English League would be in no particular order.

Chapman

Nicholson

Clough

Shankly

Paisley 

Wenger

Ferguson 

Sirrel.  Special merit award 

This is a very difficult decision but these are my top 6

1. Clough 

2. Shankly 

3. Chapman 

4. Nicholson 

5. Paisley 

6. Ferguson 

I choose Clough because he built two unfancied provincial sides from scratch to win the first division championship & then won two European Cups and 4 league cups with Forest after rebuilding the side several times.

[Wheelbarrow repair man]

@Robbie 

Reading your comment I to have left out the likes of Mourinho and Pep because both have never been to Financially Strapped Club, while managing a Club in England. Both have had Millions of Pounds worth of playing Talent and as is often said Manchester City with their Arab Rich Owners and Chelsea under Abramovich bought their Success.. To even get a Sniff of being Considered the G.O.A.T  both Jose and Pep need to go to a Club, like oh I Don't Know. Wealdstone or Dorking go to a Non League Team with little or No player Budget, get them Promoted back to the EFL and finally into the Premier League then they both can call themselves Managers. Ferguson was another with a Big Transfer Budget, later on in his stint at Man Utd.

I've have heard the name Herbert Chapman but was unaware of his Record. And he was way before my time, so I've stuck with Managers I know .Bill Nicholson I have heard of didn't his Spurs team do the Double  for the first  time in the 20th Century ? Another Manager who did the Double was Bertie Mee at Arsenal.

Both Jimmy Sirrel and Dave Bassett while never winning a Major Trophy both have Achieved remarkable success at Notts and Wimbledon and took their Teams to the First Division, so both deserve Recognition.], by building Something Out Of Nothing.

But coming down to Brass Tacks, I like you have to Choose Brian Clough  as the G.O.AT.

[Robbie]

Those modern Managers of the Premier  League@Wheelbarrow repair man 

I would like to see the big six managers build a team in the Championship, get promoted then win the Premiership title then the next season come second and win the Champions League, then the season after too.

I think that doing that will be near on impossible now, but that's how a Manager should be judged if he wants to be in line for being the GOAT.

Yes, Guardiola has won 4 titles on the trot, but he has the best players available because his club has a never ending supply  of money, so I don't think that compares with what Clough, Nicholson, or Chapman did, but many will disagree with me.

To be honest, I'd put Jimmy Sirrel above Guardiola for having the know-how to build teams, with not much available cash, to go from the 4th Division to the first in 10 seasons.

I also think that the Premier League Manager of the last 10 years is Ranieri, who managed Leicester to the Premier League Title in 2016.

[Piethagoram]

I agree @Robbie "To be honest, I'd put Jimmy Sirrel above Guardiola for having the know-how to build teams, with not much available cash, to go from the 4th Division to the first in 10 seasons."

In fact, I will just go with managers who have had success with beginning to next to nothing

Warnock, Big Sam

Always been impressed with Mark Robins ( Hardy picked Nolan.... big mistake), Ernie Howe, Graham Taylor, Brian Flynn ( one for @Dry Nelson Ray ) Tony Mowbray, Bobby Robson, 

For big club managers, Joe Mercer, Klopp, George Graham, 

[Robbie]

@Agree @Piethagoram some great Managers you mentioned there, who I would put above some of the modern Managers in the Football league.

I did some research @Wheelbarrow repair man and found a Manager who was Manager of Aston Villa  from 1886 to 1926, imagine that, 40 years, and his name was George Ramsey  who guided them to six league Championships and Six FA Cups.

Aston Villa

First Division Champions (6): 

1893–94, 1895–96, 1896–97, 1898–99, 1899–1900, 1909–10

Runners up (6): 1889, 1903, 1908, 1911, 1913, 1914

FA Cup Winners (6): 

1886–87, 1894–95, 1896–97, 1904–05, 1912–13, 1919–20

Runners up (2): 1892, 1924

Now that is some record

This guy is very interesting because he was into Football science, ie, style of play.

Aston Villa became renowned for their short, quick combination passing under his leadership.

I think I would definitely put him high up as a GOAT. Just imagine how many sides he has to build in 40 years. An unprecedented number of years to do it multiple times takes some doing.

[Wheelbarrow repair man]

@Robbie

Good Grief George Ramsey seems one hell of a Manager, 40 years in charge at one Club and winning  Trophies left right and centre. I may have to change the G.O.A.T Heading to the G.OA.T Manager of the Modern Era. Because this guy has One Hell Of A Record.

There's No Premier League Managers who could come anywhere near George's longevity. It would be interesting to know his Win Ratio over those Forty Years, if Records go back that far.

[allardyces tash]

This view may not be widely held, but Gareth Southgate’s name deserves to be brought up. He has performed exceptionally well with England. His accomplishments with both the senior team and the under 21s are nothing short of extraordinary, and he has rekindled the faith of English fans in the squad.

There’s no denying that we have a strong team. However, reaching the semi-final and then the final of two competitions indicates that there’s something unique about him. It’s clear that Gareth Southgate has a special quality.

[Robbie]

@allardyces tash Gareth does tend to go under the radar when it comes to talking about great managers, but he has quietly got on with his job, and he's good at batting away criticism too.

I'm hoping for big  things from the England team in the Euros this time. England should get to the semis and hopefully will get to the final. He's hoping.

[Robbie]

@Wheelbarrow repair man

Can you imagine the pressure on a Manager in the modern era, six games without a win and the media and fans are calling for their head.

Of course, the modern era of instant opinion on social media & instant news & opinion available from the MS Media and online papers doesn't make a manager's job easy.

But yes, 40 years in the same job. George Ramsey must have been some guy and his feats as a Manager should be up there in lights.

And you can bet your bottom dollar that all league clubs were very equal to each other in those days, so a manager had to be very good at building a successful team by putting the average players in their strongest positions on the pitch to make the team even better. Clough was good at that.

[Robbie]

@Wheelbarrow repair man

Another great Manager that deserves a mention, Stan Cullis, Manager of Wolverhampton Wanderers from 1948 to 1964.

Honours as Wolves Manager 

First Division

Champions: 1953–54, 1957–58, 1958–59

Runners-up: 1949–50, 1954–55, 1959–60

Third-place: 1952–53, 1955–56, 1960–61

FA Cup

Winners: 1949, 1960

FA Charity Shield

Winners: 1959

Shared: 1949 (with Portsmouth), 1954 (with West Bromwich Albion), 1960 (with Burnley)

Runners-up: 1958

Wolves played many European matches as friendlies in the late 50s, such teams like Real Madrid & Dynamo Moscow, which were pre cursers for later European Cup competitions.

Stan also had a long and successful playing career with Wolves too.

[Chris]

Neil Warnock? There's been no one more successful than him in the EFL.

If you want to survive the drop in the Championship, hire him. If you want to promote, hire him. He just brings the best out of players and whilsr he might not make the grade at the Premier League level. His career speaks volumes for him as a manager, which makes him by far one of the greatest.

[Wheelbarrow repair man]

With out a Doubt @Chris  Neil's record for getting Clubs Promoted and Saving Others from the Drop is truly Amazing. His Man Management Skills are also Superb. That's why I've kept going on about Notts hiring him as Director of Football here at the Lane. Nobody can say Neil wouldn't have made a Great Tutor for Stuart Maynard and Helped him become a Better Coach. his Footballing Knowledge and Experience would work wonders for Maynard just knowing he could at anytime tap into all that vast Knowledge to help the rest of his Coaching Staff become better at their jobs and Players simply better Players. But  it would seem that the Board at Notts and some Fans Don't think it's  a good Idea, how could it  Not Be?  Somebody who will Improve the Head Coach and Players can only be a Boon. Sorry I've wondered off Topic.

[Wheelbarrow repair man]

@allardyces tash

Regarding Southgate. There is a saying You Get Nowt For Coming Second.

All the talent he has available England should have Won a Major Tournament by Now. But the further England advance in a Tournament Southgate reverts back to his negative tactics instead of letting his players play with flare and use their Natural Abilities.

[Robbie]

I agree @Wheelbarrow repair man about Southgate. He always comes across negative when England get to the later stages of a tournament. 

The powers that be at the FA believe in him, because he goes about his business in a quiet way and doesn't make any waves.

But I don't think that he is ever going to change his ways unfortunately. It always seems to be his default position. I hope he proves me wrong this time.

[Wheelbarrow repair man]

@Robbie I wouldn't count on it, proving you wrong  that is. Southgate is a Yes Man, that's why the F.A. like him, and realistically what ever happens to England in this Tournament, it's time for Southgate to go, something which should have happened a while ago.

The Men to take over the England Squad? Either Eddie Howe or Shaun Dyce.  Both are Inspirational Leaders and both have turned unfancied teams in Bournemouth and Burnley into Premier League Teams when they were in charge. Even when Burnley were Relegated Dyce brought them back up. Both now are doing  excellent jobs at Newcastle and Everton.

 

[Robbie]

@Wheelbarrow repair man I think what we are discussing regarding England Managers would be a good topic to discuss on a fresh thread because there's only ever been one England manager that's come anywhere near being called a GOAT & that's Alf Ramsey, although you could say that he was a yes man too. The FA really do like those types of Manager don't they.

 

[Robbie]

The best England Manager there never was.

 

[Wheelbarrow repair man]

@Robbie Which is why Cloughie never got the England Job. I remember in an interview Brian Clough stated that the FA were worried that if he was appointed England Manager, he'd want to take over everything and Run It Properly. And I would have he stated. If Brian Clough and Peter Taylor had lead England in the 1970's I am 100% Convinced there would have been more Trophies in the England Trophy Cabinet. 

[liampie]

On 14/06/2024 at 22:41, Wheelbarrow repair man said:

All the talent he has available England should have Won a Major Tournament by Now. But the further England advance in a Tournament Southgate reverts back to his negative tactics instead of letting his players play with flare and use their Natural Abilities.

he brought success to the england u21s, the squad lacked direction and fight prior to gareth southgates appointment. allowing the england manager to work with the young players, building them up and giving experience to those who are future first team stars was the best decision the english fa have done. it allowed southgate to bring in players who would have gone over looked.

the biggest failure team wise is the golden generation.

i disagree somewhat about we should have won, i have always felt we have overachieved team wise. it was not long ago that harry kane had no competition for his place. the midfield only had individual stars and not a team. every manager tends to have negative tactics, but southgate is proving himself to be one of the best.

he did well with middlesborough too.

[Wheelbarrow repair man]

@liampie

What a Boring Web Site PON would be if we all Agreed about everything, would it Not?  You and I it seems Agree to Disagree about Southgate. His success with the England Under21's I was not fully aware of, however as they say You Can't Keep Living On Past Glories. And while his Results Record is Good his Legacy will reflect the fact like a lot of England Managers before him he failed to Win a Major Tournament.  Yes I know the Euro's are still being played at the moment, but Hand On Heart I Can't See England Winning the Competition. I would be more than happy to be proven Wrong.

And even if Southgate's England Team are Crowned Europe's Best. He's a Million Miles Away From being the G.O.A.T. Which is what this topic was all about and which seems we've wondered off.

Edited June 18 by Wheelbarrow repair man

[Robbie]

@liampie @Wheelbarrow repair man

I agree with you liampie to a certain extent regarding Southgate and his involvement with the under 21s.

However,  Peter Taylor has a good record as England under 21 Manager too. Over two periods & one match as caretaker he only had 3 defeats in 31 games as manager.

He knew lots of young players who went on to play for the senior England side, but Peter Taylor was continually overlooked for the Senior England Manager role.

Stuart Pearce had a great record as England under 21 Manager too, just 5 defeats in 41 matches.

That's why I wouldn't say that Southgate's experience as an under 21 Manager was a factor in him getting the senior role.

To be honest, I think Peter Taylor was a better Manager than Southgate, but again, I think politics was involved again why Taylor wasn't considered for England Manager.