Match Discussion: Game 27 - The Hatters (A)

[Super_Danny_Allsopp]

1 hour ago, erindoors said:

There is still a belief that a success is fostered through club loyalty, believe it of not. 

The aim of sustainability has never altered. Why would it? Failing to achieve that harms everyone. Its also why Salary Cost Management Protocol was put it place.

 

If you are trying to suggest club loyalty to our manager(s), then you will understand why I do not believe that, at all.

Whilst I am not privy to the clubs exact wage structure, taking into account the playing personnel at the club and the sheer volume of them, I am led to believe that the wage budget was higher at the start of this season than it was the start of last season. Combined with a drop in divisions, that would be a step away from sustainability rather than towards it. Furthermore, spending 150k on a striker the wrong side of 30 doesn't exactly suggest long-term sustainability, either.

Last season, when Ray Trew was in the media promoting this 'self-sustainability', he also mentioned the wage budget was the 18th highest in the league. So a complete novice was given one of the lowest budgets in the league. One would assume that you sacked Derry in a last gasp attempt to preserve League One status (though I think it's a fools errand trying to rationalise your hiring and firing these days), yet again appointed someone with no experience of lower league football. Whilst not against the Moniz appointment, the timing was strange to say the least. 

So this season we have again fired the manager, this time it's 'refusing to let the club stagnate', so again, guessing that means achieve promotion? Then hire another novice.



Baffling. 


 

[xxx]

51 minutes ago, Super_Danny_Allsopp said:

If you are trying to suggest club loyalty to our manager(s), then you will understand why I do not believe that, at all.

Whilst I am not privy to the clubs exact wage structure, taking into account the playing personnel at the club and the sheer volume of them, I am led to believe that the wage budget was higher at the start of this season than it was the start of last season. Combined with a drop in divisions, that would be a step away from sustainability rather than towards it. Furthermore, spending 150k on a striker the wrong side of 30 doesn't exactly suggest long-term sustainability, either.

Last season, when Ray Trew was in the media promoting this 'self-sustainability', he also mentioned the wage budget was the 18th highest in the league. So a complete novice was given one of the lowest budgets in the league. One would assume that you sacked Derry in a last gasp attempt to preserve League One status (though I think it's a fools errand trying to rationalise your hiring and firing these days), yet again appointed someone with no experience of lower league football. Whilst not against the Moniz appointment, the timing was strange to say the least. 

So this season we have again fired the manager, this time it's 'refusing to let the club stagnate', so again, guessing that means achieve promotion? Then hire another novice.



Baffling. 


 

I'm  not "trying to suggest" anything. I stated something.

Personal cash injections into the club (e.g. to buy a proven striker) are neither desirable, nor necessarily sustainable, granted, but sometimes it's been the case that speculation has been necessary, for a variety of reasons. Ideally, we wouldn't have to and that's the aim. That doesn't affect the club, as it's not a loan.

And it's fine to quote how comparatively good or bad a wage spend was at any given time, but there plenty of other variable in there, too.

No, we didn't sack SD, or any other manager in a "last ditch attempt" but, without going into detail (as it's not appropriate,) when the longer term picture is not going to be sustained by their methods, then an area of change is needed. And yes, I agree, timings could have been better not just in that case.

You're clearly against "hiring a novice" as you call it. Others are, too. We recognised how this would be received but we can't JUST take account of fears, no matter how loudly they are shouted. The board recognised the pros and cons of each applicant and were unanimous in the decision. But it was not taken lightly. No manager comes to a club with every single box ticked, and even if they did, they could still ultimately "fail." 

However, if people want to know more detail, come to the Meet the Manager. There's ample time to discuss things individually there, (not just with the Manager)as well as the more formal session. If you can't make it, meet us another time in person or email directly, or phone us perhaps?

[NewNottsFan]

1 hour ago, erindoors said:

I'm  not "trying to suggest" anything. I stated something.

Personal cash injections into the club (e.g. to buy a proven striker) are neither desirable, nor necessarily sustainable, granted, but sometimes it's been the case that speculation has been necessary, for a variety of reasons. Ideally, we wouldn't have to and that's the aim. That doesn't affect the club, as it's not a loan.

And it's fine to quote how comparatively good or bad a wage spend was at any given time, but there plenty of other variable in there, too.

No, we didn't sack SD, or any other manager in a "last ditch attempt" but, without going into detail (as it's not appropriate,) when the longer term picture is not going to be sustained by their methods, then an area of change is needed. And yes, I agree, timings could have been better not just in that case.

You're clearly against "hiring a novice" as you call it. Others are, too. We recognised how this would be received but we can't JUST take account of fears, no matter how loudly they are shouted. The board recognised the pros and cons of each applicant and were unanimous in the decision. But it was not taken lightly. No manager comes to a club with every single box ticked, and even if they did, they could still ultimately "fail." 

However, if people want to know more detail, come to the Meet the Manager. There's ample time to discuss things individually there, (not just with the Manager)as well as the more formal session. If you can't make it, meet us another time in person or email directly, or phone us perhaps?

That's the big miss for me for some of the fans. They appear to reject everything at the moment and then a 'meet the manager' is scheduled and the same folk say 'no thanks' or 'what's the point?'.. The point is that it's easy to hit a keyboard and criticise a 'novice' but it's harder to front up and ask the guy sensible questions in person or share your frustrations ?

Ask anyone in the game who knows this lad and they will tell you how focused, hard working and driven he is and always has been. Does that guarantee success ? Absolutely not ....but what it will bring is a guy who will go and meet fans and look them in the eye and answer questions. 

ill repeat this for the avoidance of doubt on here  ... I am not related to Jamie Fullarton but I'm involved in the game in Scotland and want to see scots succeed .. Especially young scots (OK I'm a bit biased)

I genuinely think that Notts have a huge opportunity to succeed and bring some positivity to Meadow Lane... But you need to go and have a chat and look the manager in the eye and ask , otherwise you'll never know. 

This lad has a hard enough task but if Notts fans give him, and the team some well needed positivity then progress will be much swifter.  I really do believe that 

Soap box away 😉

COYP ! 

 

[ivansneck]

1 hour ago, NewNottsFan said:

That's the big miss for me for some of the fans. They appear to reject everything at the moment and then a 'meet the manager' is scheduled and the same folk say 'no thanks' or 'what's the point?'.. The point is that it's easy to hit a keyboard and criticise a 'novice' but it's harder to front up and ask the guy sensible questions in person or share your frustrations ?

Ask anyone in the game who knows this lad and they will tell you how focused, hard working and driven he is and always has been. Does that guarantee success ? Absolutely not ....but what it will bring is a guy who will go and meet fans and look them in the eye and answer questions. 

ill repeat this for the avoidance of doubt on here  ... I am not related to Jamie Fullarton but I'm involved in the game in Scotland and want to see scots succeed .. Especially young scots (OK I'm a bit biased)

I genuinely think that Notts have a huge opportunity to succeed and bring some positivity to Meadow Lane... But you need to go and have a chat and look the manager in the eye and ask , otherwise you'll never know. 

This lad has a hard enough task but if Notts fans give him, and the team some well needed positivity then progress will be much swifter.  I really do believe that 

Soap box away 😉

COYP ! 

 

You make some good points @NewNottsFan. I did oppose the sacking of Moniz and the appointment of a rookie on the basis of risk. I don't change my view on those things, but I agree with you that now JF is the manager he should be supported.

I think one problem on this board is that some of us hark back to days when football was an entertainemnt and a sport not a business - not that I blame anyone at NCFC for this change.

I myself was brought up as an Evertonian in the era of 'The Golden Vision' (now there was a Scotsman!) when style was just as important, if not more so, than results. Then I moved to Monchengladbach and fell under the spell there also of entertainment before results. The style of players such as Alan Ball, Wayne Rooney, Colin Harvey, Duncan McKenzie, Pat Nevin, Dave Thomas, Kevin Sheedy, Trevor Steven, Gunther Netzer, Allan Simonsen, Stefan Effenberg, Lothar Matthaus, Marco Reus, Jupp Heynkes etc. etc. is what I want to see. The attitude that Hennes Weisweiler (the legendary Gladbach coach) had in responding to criticism following a 6-5 defeat at SV Werder, by saying he preferred it to losing 1-0. The attitude that led to Borussia using 2 teenage centre backs against Bayern this season, one getting his debut against Lewandowski (and winning 3-1). Of course it's not always successful but it entertains.

Did you see Gladbach's match at Man City last month? Not enough players to fill the subs bench due to injuries, loads of kids playing so let's attack and try and play them off the park. I felt Gladbach did that in the first half despite going 1 down to a piece of David Silva magic and were winnning 2-1 until the legs went midway through the second half. Yes it ended in defeat and European exit but the feeling among the fans was that the players had done us, the club and its traditions proud. I club should be an ethos, a way of playing, a style, something to cherish and feel a part of.

Under Ricardo Moniz, I saw some of the most fluid attacking football that I have ever seen in England. Of course it was of 4th division standard, but it was the attitude, the freedom, the movement, the enjoyment I loved. Like a number of my friends we were suddenly looking forward to home games and being happy even in defeat.

Yes it's a romantic view, and leads to glorious failure at times, but I go to sport to be entertained, enthused etc. I go to a business to do shopping or something like that.

Watch a tape of Alex Young playing, Everton beating Man Utd 5-0 in the mid 80's, The 2 superb Dinamo Kyiv teams under Lobanovskiy (a pupil of Weisweiler), the Ajax team of the mid 90's all of which I travelled miles and miles to watch on a regular basis. Notts are not going to reach those levels of performance, but any club can aspire to the same goals and dreams.

[golden-magpie]

6 hours ago, Super_Danny_Allsopp said:

If you are trying to suggest club loyalty to our manager(s), then you will understand why I do not believe that, at all.

Whilst I am not privy to the clubs exact wage structure, taking into account the playing personnel at the club and the sheer volume of them, I am led to believe that the wage budget was higher at the start of this season than it was the start of last season. Combined with a drop in divisions, that would be a step away from sustainability rather than towards it. Furthermore, spending 150k on a striker the wrong side of 30 doesn't exactly suggest long-term sustainability, either.

Last season, when Ray Trew was in the media promoting this 'self-sustainability', he also mentioned the wage budget was the 18th highest in the league. So a complete novice was given one of the lowest budgets in the league. One would assume that you sacked Derry in a last gasp attempt to preserve League One status (though I think it's a fools errand trying to rationalise your hiring and firing these days), yet again appointed someone with no experience of lower league football. Whilst not against the Moniz appointment, the timing was strange to say the least. 

So this season we have again fired the manager, this time it's 'refusing to let the club stagnate', so again, guessing that means achieve promotion? Then hire another novice.

Baffling. 

That 150k got a us a goal scorer.

A player who was wanted above this league and once upon a time the next.

Provided we move forward which I know we are not, why focus on the negatives anyway? We won a side which most thought would knock two or more passed us. I support the club, more should and quit finding arguments with the people who run it. Saturday was a great team performance. A sign of more to come hopefully! Oh and the stupid chants towards Jamie Fullarton, completely uncalled for!

[Piethagoram 𝕏 @piethagoram]

Just a few words in appreciation of @erindoors giving insights from the questions asked in this thread. 

@Super_Danny_Allsopp I have to say SDA that I take issue with your comment concerning Derry's departure "Last gasp attempt to preserve L1 status"..As Erindoors implied, the big picture was there for all to see, a poor footballing philosophy which patently wasn't working

@ivansneck I must express these are my sentiments too... 

Quote

"Under Ricardo Moniz, I saw some of the most fluid attacking football that I have ever seen in England. Of course it was of 4th division standard, but it was the attitude, the freedom, the movement, the enjoyment I loved. Like a number of my friends we were suddenly looking forward to home games and being happy even in defeat.

Yes it's a romantic view, and leads to glorious failure at times, but I go to sport to be entertained, enthused etc."

Unquote

It is good to see that in order to achieve sustainability, the building blocks of the Reserve side, does show that we have some good youngsters coming through, for the first time for many years. I am hopeful that Wildin Agathise, Gibson and the return of Pedro's son from Sligo could have real opportunities in next season's squad. 

The real plead is for Jamie to acknowledge that the back to basics defending can be enhanced by having creative players, harking back to the days of "Rash the smash" and the likes of McSweeeeeeeeeegan types of players

 

COYP

 

 

[Super_Danny_Allsopp]

11 hours ago, golden-magpie said:

That 150k got a us a goal scorer.

A player who was wanted above this league and once upon a time the next.

I'm not questioning the signing or quality of Mcleod - I thought it was a decent signing.

However, if the aim is to be self sustainable, spending 150k on a striker the wrong side of 30 isn't a great way to do it, IMO. Saying that it isn't a loan is neither here nor there - by that logic Man City could be self-sustainable, provided their super rich owners pump enough money in and it's not in the form of loans. 

16 hours ago, NewNottsFan said:

That's the big miss for me for some of the fans. They appear to reject everything at the moment and then a 'meet the manager' is scheduled and the same folk say 'no thanks' or 'what's the point?'.. The point is that it's easy to hit a keyboard and criticise a 'novice' but it's harder to front up and ask the guy sensible questions in person or share your frustrations ?

I don't think many were criticising JF directly. How could we? On his appointment we knew next to nothing about him. The criticism was aimed at the type of appointment. If at the end of the season, Moniz still wasn't up to the task, it would be then understandable for the club to appoint a 'novice'. However, the reasons given for sacking Moniz was to 'not let the club stagnate' (i.e promotion)... so then the appointment of such 'novice' (and not necessarily JF, ANY novice) seemed ridiculous, hence the backlash.

It's all about timing.

Furthermore, labeling JF a novice isn't criticism, it's a fact. No first team managerial experience = novice. 

 

16 hours ago, erindoors said:

I'm  not "trying to suggest" anything. I stated something.

Personal cash injections into the club (e.g. to buy a proven striker) are neither desirable, nor necessarily sustainable, granted, but sometimes it's been the case that speculation has been necessary, for a variety of reasons. Ideally, we wouldn't have to and that's the aim. That doesn't affect the club, as it's not a loan.

And it's fine to quote how comparatively good or bad a wage spend was at any given time, but there plenty of other variable in there, too.

No, we didn't sack SD, or any other manager in a "last ditch attempt" but, without going into detail (as it's not appropriate,) when the longer term picture is not going to be sustained by their methods, then an area of change is needed. And yes, I agree, timings could have been better not just in that case.

You're clearly against "hiring a novice" as you call it. Others are, too. We recognised how this would be received but we can't JUST take account of fears, no matter how loudly they are shouted. The board recognised the pros and cons of each applicant and were unanimous in the decision. But it was not taken lightly. No manager comes to a club with every single box ticked, and even if they did, they could still ultimately "fail." 

However, if people want to know more detail, come to the Meet the Manager. There's ample time to discuss things individually there, (not just with the Manager)as well as the more formal session. If you can't make it, meet us another time in person or email directly, or phone us perhaps?

You stated club loyalty. You didn't state who the loyalty was intended for, hence the clarification.

I'm not against 'hiring a novice'. As already stated, it's the timing.... and the reasons given for sacking the previous manager. Again, they don't add up. 

45 minutes ago, Piethagoram said:

 

@Super_Danny_Allsopp I have to say SDA that I take issue with your comment concerning Derry's departure "Last gasp attempt to preserve L1 status"..As Erindoors implied, the big picture was there for all to see, a poor footballing philosophy which patently wasn't working

Whilst I do think that Derry could, and maybe will elsewhere, have come good, the issue again is more the timing. Sacking him at such a stage didn't make sense, unless his replacement was a Martin Allen kind of manager. It wasn't, and it failed. That's easy for me to say with hindsight and knowing the eventual outcome, but I think if Derry was sacked in Jan, it maybe would have been more understandable. Either that, or let him try and survive until the end of the season. 

Sacking him when we did, if not last gasp, what was it?! 

[Piethagoram 𝕏 @piethagoram]

@Super_Danny_Allsopp I agree the timing could have been better..but to say in January? Yes, we were starting to go through a bad patch, but no one at that time, was really calling for his head. Maybe the final straw were the cost and perceived "quality" of the new and loan signings in that January transfer window? Whoever scouted these, well we may never know. I would add that if Derry had continued, the ultimate outcome was to be the same, one of the worst, if not the worst home record in 150 years and you were still prepared to give him more time? At least it gave the new manager a few weeks to analyse just how many shortcomings of the squad he had inherited.

[xxx]

I think you're determined to keep your own views no matter what is said. I could pick up on so much of what you've said and taken out of context but it'd be construed as arguing, rather than providing facts to you, which seems pointless. 

intended for SDA

Edited February 1, 2016 by erindoors

[NewNottsFan]

16 minutes ago, Super_Danny_Allsopp said:

I'm not questioning the signing or quality of Mcleod - I thought it was a decent signing.

However, if the aim is to be self sustainable, spending 150k on a striker the wrong side of 30 isn't a great way to do it, IMO. Saying that it isn't a loan is neither here nor there - by that logic Man City could be self-sustainable, provided their super rich owners pump enough money in and it's not in the form of loans. 

I don't think many were criticising JF directly. How could we? On his appointment we knew next to nothing about him. The criticism was aimed at the type of appointment. If at the end of the season, Moniz still wasn't up to the task, it would be then understandable for the club to appoint a 'novice'. However, the reasons given for sacking Moniz was to 'not let the club stagnate' (i.e promotion)... so then the appointment of such 'novice' (and not necessarily JF, ANY novice) seemed ridiculous, hence the backlash.

It's all about timing.

Furthermore, labeling JF a novice isn't criticism, it's a fact. No first team managerial experience = novice. 

 

You stated club loyalty. You didn't state who the loyalty was intended for, hence the clarification.

I'm not against 'hiring a novice'. As already stated, it's the timing.... and the reasons given for sacking the previous manager. Again, they don't add up. 

Whilst I do think that Derry could, and maybe will elsewhere, have come good, the issue again is more the timing. Sacking him at such a stage didn't make sense, unless his replacement was a Martin Allen kind of manager. It wasn't, and it failed. That's easy for me to say with hindsight and knowing the eventual outcome, but I think if Derry was sacked in Jan, it maybe would have been more understandable. Either that, or let him try and survive until the end of the season. 

Sacking him when we did, if not last gasp, what was it?! 

To be fair there was quite a bit of criticism of him directly, maybe not from you, but there was across social media ( granted that's not necessarily a yardstick of all fans)

At the end of the day in terms of management at first team level then yes he's a novice in terms of being in sole charge.

I did worry however, that regardless of how things progressed for him that some fans would automatically use that as a stick to beat him with very quickly as soon as any negatives came to light ( wimbledon for example)

I think results so far have gone some way to appeasing that in part...but there is a way to go yet

I think this forum, in comparison to others, is pretty sensible as I have read some quite alarming stuff elsewhere !! 

[ivansneck]

12 minutes ago, erindoors said:

I think you're determined to keep your own views no matter what is said. I could pick up on so much of what you've said and taken out of context but it'd be construed as arguing, rather than providing facts to you, which seems pointless. 

intended for SDA

@erindoors many thanks for coming onto the board so give your insights and points of view. I don't agree with some of your decisions as you can see above, but I don't doubt your motives are good. I like this board because we can have a civilised difference of opinion, after all a lot of this is opinion not fact.

(Except my opinions of course which are always correct...)

[Super_Danny_Allsopp]

19 minutes ago, erindoors said:

I think you're determined to keep your own views no matter what is said. I could pick up on so much of what you've said and taken out of context but it'd be construed as arguing, rather than providing facts to you, which seems pointless. 

intended for SDA

I don't think I've (intentionally at least) taken anything out of context, maybe misinterpreted, but that's something else entirely. 

As you say, I don't think we will agree, but thanks for sharing your views/insight anyway, much appreciated. 

4 minutes ago, NewNottsFan said:

To be fair there was quite a bit of criticism of him directly, maybe not from you, but there was across social media ( granted that's not necessarily a yardstick of all fans)

At the end of the day in terms of management at first team level then yes he's a novice in terms of being in sole charge.

I did worry however, that regardless of how things progressed for him that some fans would automatically use that as a stick to beat him with very quickly as soon as any negatives came to light ( wimbledon for example)

I think results so far have gone some way to appeasing that in part...but there is a way to go yet

I think this forum, in comparison to others, is pretty sensible as I have read some quite alarming stuff elsewhere !! 

Agreed, that's part of football though, if a manager wasn't well received by the fans they will tend to be less patient when things don't work out.

Regardless of our opinions at the time, we have to get behind the team and the new manager, 6 points from 9 is not a bad start at all. 

[NewNottsFan]

Just now, Super_Danny_Allsopp said:

I don't think I've (intentionally at least) taken anything out of context, maybe misinterpreted, but that's something else entirely. 

As you say, I don't think we will agree, but thanks for sharing your views/insight anyway, much appreciated. 

Agreed, that's part of football though, if a manager wasn't well received by the fans they will tend to be less patient when things don't work out.

Regardless of our opinions at the time, we have to get behind the team and the new manager, 6 points from 9 is not a bad start at all. 

Exactly ...a good start and hopefully some momentum moving into February.

[golden-magpie]

7 hours ago, Super_Danny_Allsopp said:

I'm not questioning the signing or quality of Mcleod - I thought it was a decent signing.

However, if the aim is to be self sustainable, spending 150k on a striker the wrong side of 30 isn't a great way to do it, IMO. Saying that it isn't a loan is neither here nor there - by that logic Man City could be self-sustainable, provided their super rich owners pump enough money in and it's not in the form of loans. 

I don't think many were criticising JF directly. How could we? On his appointment we knew next to nothing about him. The criticism was aimed at the type of appointment. If at the end of the season, Moniz still wasn't up to the task, it would be then understandable for the club to appoint a 'novice'. However, the reasons given for sacking Moniz was to 'not let the club stagnate' (i.e promotion)... so then the appointment of such 'novice' (and not necessarily JF, ANY novice) seemed ridiculous, hence the backlash.

It's all about timing.

Furthermore, labeling JF a novice isn't criticism, it's a fact. No first team managerial experience = novice. 

 

You stated club loyalty. You didn't state who the loyalty was intended for, hence the clarification.

I'm not against 'hiring a novice'. As already stated, it's the timing.... and the reasons given for sacking the previous manager. Again, they don't add up. 

Whilst I do think that Derry could, and maybe will elsewhere, have come good, the issue again is more the timing. Sacking him at such a stage didn't make sense, unless his replacement was a Martin Allen kind of manager. It wasn't, and it failed. That's easy for me to say with hindsight and knowing the eventual outcome, but I think if Derry was sacked in Jan, it maybe would have been more understandable. Either that, or let him try and survive until the end of the season. 

Sacking him when we did, if not last gasp, what was it?! 

If we lost him to a bid of 150k, fans would be saying why didn't we pay 175 or something.

[Blink1862]

Solid win, something which the players and manager can build on. If we fail to win at Meadow Lane, will it be a case of swooping one outcome for another? More of the same would be good to see.