What's the point of VAR?

[Robbie 𝕏 @Robbie_NCFC]

How can fans have confidence in VAR when for instance, the VAR rule regarding handball in the area, by a defender, between the Premier League & Uefa is different?

Uefa:

Any time the ball hits a defensive player on the arm it is likely to be a penalty, unless the defender’s arms are inside the “natural silhouette." (Basically, players should have their arms by their side).

The exception is when the defender accidentally plays the ball against his own arm or hand. 

Premier League 

Refs will give far more leeway to defenders who inadvertently block shots or crosses with arms outside their body shape.

By giving the Referees that leeway in this Country, it leaves the door open to mistakes and wrongful decisions. No wonder we have so many. We've seen handballs out of that "natural silhouette" where penalties haven't been given.

In my opinion the Uefa rules should be standard here as well.

(Info taken from Google)

[KB1862 𝕏 @KB1862 Instagram Bainbridge316]

This is the issue I have with the handball rule. What exactly is deemed a "natural" position? 

Pundits have often said it and us as fans can even say it that when players are jumping for the ball, they need to use there arms to get elevation as well as using it for balance. So if a player jumps for the ball, of course their arms are gonna be out because they're needing it for elevation and balance so for a ball to hit that part of the body from a header down or a bounce on to the arm surely that needs to be deemed as a "natural" position.

This is why there are suggestions for ex-players to be involved so they can give an insight into why players have their bodies shaped the way they are in certain situations. 

Also, if a ball bounces off a thigh, side, foot, head or what ever it may be on to the hand, it should not by any means be deemed a handball because it has hit a different body part before the hand.

The whole handball situation doesn't take into account of the situation a player is in like jumping for a ball, how close an opponent is when striking the ball.

It's almost like they want players to play with their arms strapped up behind their backs at all times. Not to mention humans don't have fast enough reactions to move their arms towards their bodies in to a "natural" position when a ball is struck at them from 2-3 yards out. 

[TheSkipper 𝕏 TheSkipperNCFC]

VAR in the Premier League could be improved by ensuring consistency in decision-making. This could be achieved by providing referees with more comprehensive training on VAR use. Additionally, the use of on-field monitors should be encouraged for referees to make informed decisions. Transparency could also be enhanced by communicating VAR decisions to spectators in the stadium. Lastly, refining the offside rule in the context of VAR could reduce controversial decisions. These improvements could enhance the effectiveness of VAR and its acceptance among fans, players, and officials.

[KB1862 𝕏 @KB1862 Instagram Bainbridge316]

@TheSkipper Communication to the stadium would be a great thing to have. It's been called for for a while now. They used it in the Women's World Cup and it allowed fans to understand what is going on. Watching at home you can see what they're looking at but in the stadium you're wondering what it is exactly they're trying to pinpoint. 

I think there's a lot lost in the "letter of the law" which partly contributes to bad decision making. Sometimes common sense also has to come in to the equation. 

Referees often say that ex players don't have enough training to be involved with VAR and that's where I think things get muddled up with the training and following of the law comes in.  

[Robbie 𝕏 @Robbie_NCFC]

Watched the semi final match of the Africa Cup of Nations: Nigeria v South Africa. 

Nigeria finally won the match, but there were 3 penalty incidents where VAR was involved.

The first penalty was clear cut where Nigeria took the lead, but South Africa's penalty was full of drama.. There was what looked like a foul in the Nigerian penalty area, but the ref said play on, Nigeria broke away and scored a goal with wild celebrations going on, and the crowd was going wild with delight too..

Then VAR got involved and went back to the suspected foul play incident earlier. The Ref reviewed the footage and gave South Africa a penalty, so instead of being 2:0 it was 1:1.

Then late in the game, Nigeria broke away and the Nigerian forward was brought down near or on the penalty line  After about 6 minutes deliberation the SA defender was sent off, but it was adjudged no penalty, a free kick was given on the edge of the penalty area, that was beaten off 

Subsequently the match went to penalties and Nigeria won. 

But, why didn't the ref blow for a foul instead of letting the play go on for Nigeria to score their 2nd, that never was.

This is what I don't like about VAR. The Ref not stopping the game after the foul, and not making the decision about the penalty himself in the first place. 

Then leaving it to VAR after Nigeria scored, then the time taken.

All this spoils the game in my opinion.

[KB1862 𝕏 @KB1862 Instagram Bainbridge316]

@Robbie I started watching this game when there was 15 minutes left of normal time and I was gonna come to this point. It showed how useful VAR can be when used correctly.

I do agree with your point about the referee not blowing for a penalty in the first place. When watching the replays, it was clear to see that the referee could not have been in a better position to see the incident than he already was. He was a few yards behind, looking directly at the incident. I mean from a neutral fans perspective, it made for a dramatic entertaining end to the game. Nigeria going 2-0 up and looking set to secure their place in the final only for them to have that lead snatched away and then have to go for another half an hour.

I do feel the play went on for too long for it to be pulled back though.

However, as I mentioned it was VAR being useful. The referee missed an incident and VAR intervened which is what it is there for "a clear and obvious error". It was the right call but without VAR it would have been totally different. Unless the referee would have given it without VAR being involved and having to make the call in real time himself knowing that VAR won't come to the conclusion. 

On to the other incident, it's understandable why VAR was used for that because of where the foul took place. It was always going to be a red card, rightly so, but they needed to determine whether or not it was inside or outside the box that the actual contact was made.

Both decisions still took too long to come to any conclusion and it needs to be quicker but the main thing is both decisions were 100% correct and that's what is needed from VAR.

[Robbie 𝕏 @Robbie_NCFC]

I do agree that the decisions were correct @KB1862, it's just the time taken, and the Ref not blowing for the pen in the first place. Why not stop the game after the incident and check VAR straight away for a pen?

I just think a Ref should ref the game as if VAR wasn't there. Then use VAR when it's necessary.

But there lies the problem. Refs don't want to be seen to be making a wrong decision then VAR showing it up.

That was the discussion about Mike Dean.

[KB1862 𝕏 @KB1862 Instagram Bainbridge316]

1 minute ago, Robbie said:

Why not stop the game after the incident and check VAR straight away for a pen?

Because that would be re-reffing the game, which is what VAR doesn't want to do because fans, players, managers and pundits thought it was disrupting the game which it would do if that was the case. The game played on, Nigeria scored, if there was no incident than Nigeria would have been 2-0 up. But, if he had stopped it there and then with no incident, what happens then? Drop ball, resume play placing everyone back in to their exact positions of when the ref stopped it? It's essentially what you're taught as a youngster, play to the whistle.

Referees should make their own decisions and if they make the wrong call VAR will highlight the mistake and see it as an error by the official. Unfortunately VAR is too heavily relied on and it's a get out of jail free card for all referees now. 

[Robbie 𝕏 @Robbie_NCFC]

Something we already knew.

VAR decisions do take too long and is spoiling the enjoyment for supporters.

 

[Robbie 𝕏 @Robbie_NCFC]

Not surprised by this.

 

[KB1862 𝕏 @KB1862 Instagram Bainbridge316]

Makes me laugh that they're announcing this like it's breaking news. It's been clear and obvious (bit of VAR talk there) for a long time now that VAR has been ruining some of the enjoyment in the game. Especially those who go to the fans in attendance at games. Not to mention the fact that on ref watch they have on Sky Sports they highlight so many failings from previous weekends action. 

But, 20 wrong decision calls seems very low. They've got to have missed many decisions off the list to make the number seem better. 

There's always talk about improving VAR but the only thing they've done is "VAR will not re-ref the game". How about they follow the Women's World Cup and have footage of incidents and allow the ref to be mic'd up so that the whole stadium can see and hear what is going on and for the referee to explain their decisions. That would be an improvement. 

VAR can be good for the game but it has to be correctly used and it needs to be speedier. 

[Robbie 𝕏 @Robbie_NCFC]

Another problem VAR is reluctant to solve because VAR doesn't interfere.

 

[KB1862 𝕏 @KB1862 Instagram Bainbridge316]

They've made a problem for themselves with VAR. They had it up and running with room for improvement but said they don't want VAR re-refereeing the game but if something like this happens that's missed by the ref then VAR must intervene to stop the shenanigans happening that it is there to prevent. It's smart from a players point of view like what Toney did and opposition players must be aware of what's happening to bring it to the attention of the ref but it's still, in all but name, breaking the rules of the game. So surely VAR has a right to get involved.

[Robbie 𝕏 @Robbie_NCFC]

Surely @KB1862 if the Ref has marked the pitch, if the ball is moved outside that mark, and a goal results from that free kick, the goal should be disallowed by VAR and the offending player booked.

This is the problem with VAR. I think some rules need to be rewritten.

[KB1862 𝕏 @KB1862 Instagram Bainbridge316]

2 minutes ago, Robbie said:

I think some rules need to be rewritten.

That's the problem with the game. Rules are being rewritten all the time and it's making it confusing for everyone involved. We always hear terms like "the letter of the law" being thrown around. The decisions may be ridiculous that we disagree with but the laws suggest otherwise. It's made a right mess of the game as we know it. 

[Robbie 𝕏 @Robbie_NCFC]

5 hours ago, KB1862 said:

That's the problem with the game. Rules are being rewritten all the time and it's making it confusing for everyone involved. We always hear terms like "the letter of the law" being thrown around. The decisions may be ridiculous that we disagree with but the laws suggest otherwise. It's made a right mess of the game as we know it. 

If the Referee has clearly made a mistake with a sending off or not seen a clear foul in the penalty area or simply missed something important like a free kick being taken from the wrong place, VAR should be able to intervene.

[Robbie 𝕏 @Robbie_NCFC]

Again, the inconsistency of VAR is plain for all to see.

 

[Robbie 𝕏 @Robbie_NCFC]

More VAR controversy in the Forest v Liverpool match 

The Ref makes a glaring mistake by inadvertently breaking the rules when giving an uncontested drop ball to Liverpool when the Ref should have given the uncontested drop ball to Forest, but the VAR officials couldn't intervene to correct the Ref.

What's the point of VAR?

[Joshua]

The problem isn’t so much with VAR itself, but rather with the individuals who are officiating and supervising it. The mistakes are still due to human error, because of how incidents are interpreted. When a referee or match official can reach a different conclusion, it suggests that there’s still a lot to be done to fine-tune the errors that can arise from ambiguous situations in football.

 

[Robbie 𝕏 @Robbie_NCFC]

More VAR controversy this weekend.

‘Is this really what football wants?’: Wolves chairman piles in on VAR ruling'

Wolves’ anger over the latest video assistant referee controversy has prompted their chairman, Jeff Shi, to question whether the ­technology is “really what football wants or needs” and urged the referees’ body Professional Game Match ­Officials Ltd (PGMOL) to address concerns to “uphold the integrity of the competition”.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/apr/07/wolves-chairman-var-is-this-really-what-football-wants-premier-league-integrity

[Ohh Tommy Johnson]

The trouble is, that it was brought in as a response to the constant whining from managers highlighting the one refereeing decision which went against them as the the reason for them losing 5 - 0.  I have no sympathy, it's a case of be careful what you wish for.. mind you I would hate it if it was brought in down the divisions. 

[Robbie 𝕏 @Robbie_NCFC]

@Ohh Tommy Johnson

Nothing has changed from decisions pre VAR. 

It's all down to interpretation by the match officials on what they see, and how they see it. 

Saw the highlights of Spurs v Forest and a player was clearly punched but it wasn't judged as violent conduct by the match officials, but different officials may have had an alternative judgement and sent the player off 

VAR has not stopped the inconsistences with decisions by match officials.

I agree with you, that we shouldn't see VAR rolled out in the lower leagues.

[Ohh Tommy Johnson]

6 minutes ago, Robbie said:

@Ohh Tommy Johnson

Nothing has changed from decisions pre VAR. 

It's all down to interpretation by the match officials on what they see, and how they see it. 

Saw the highlights of Spurs v Forest and a player was clearly punched but it wasn't judged as violent conduct by the match officials, but different officials may have had an alternative judgement and sent the player off 

VAR has not stopped the inconsistences with decisions by match officials.

I agree with you, that we shouldn't see VAR rolled out in the lower leagues.

I don't disagree.  My point was really that VAR was brought in to solve a problem that was created largely by referees being blamed for absolutely every defeat a EPL side suffered. This created the impression that referees were incompetent and technology was needed to resolve the issue.... except technology still needs some interpretation and so all it has shown me, is that the refs got far more right than wrong in the past.  It is too late now, and as the vogue is now to blame VAR; so what next?  Automate refereeing via AI? There would be an infringement every few seconds.. and that is only ever as good as the training the AI gets.   Go down the 'bunker review' system they use in Rugby Union (can you imagine the scenes if a ref blows up a couple of minutes after an event for the ref to brandish a red card?  It would be chaos.  If the current trend of calling for replays for every bad VAR call continues, I can see us eventually ending up in one of those 2 scenarios.

[Robbie 𝕏 @Robbie_NCFC]

57 minutes ago, Ohh Tommy Johnson said:

I don't disagree.  My point was really that VAR was brought in to solve a problem that was created largely by referees being blamed for absolutely every defeat a EPL side suffered.

VAR was brought in as you said, to solve that problem, but it hasn't because on field officials still make the same mistakes as they did pre VAR & the officials that operate VAR are reluctant to rule against the on field Ref even though the on field Ref has clearly made a mistake.

I think the VAR officials should be manned by former players, to cut out a possible conflict of interest 

 

[Ohh Tommy Johnson]

@Robbie I think that is basically my point.  They tried to fix the wrong thing, and allowed it to become a free for all against refs (who actually didn't make that many game changing mistakes), and they run the risk of allowing the same thing to happen again.  

I don't think ex-players is the answer as I often see defenders saying 'he got the ball, so it isn't a foul' or 'forwards saying 'he was caught so had every right to go down' when there is the slightest feather of either ball or player. I honestly don't think they know the rules very well and just do and say what they got away with during their careers. 

The powers that be would be much better giving a clear direction of who has what responsibility for what, and having a strict communications protocol like they do in cricket and rugby. I would get rid of the 'Clear and Obvious Mistake' as that is too ambiguous: you either review everything meaningful or nothing. I see the trouble as nobody knows who has the right to intervene and when. Just make it clear. My thoughts would be:

A goal is a goal unless the ref asks for a review - you could have 'I believe this to be a goal, but I am looking at the potential for a foul by attacking 10 on defending 5. Is there any reason not to award the goal?' and 'Was there any foul play in the build up to this goal'.  Likewise, 'I saw Defending 3 handle the ball, is there any reason not to award the penalty', 'I didn't see that clearly Penalty or not'.  Those checks could be made with the ball in play and the ref makes a signal like the advantage to let people know there is a check ongoing and it needs to be made within 30s. For off the ball incidents, the  VAR can call the ref's attention and then it is reviewed next time the ball goes out (again after the indication that there is a review ongoing).  So in the Spurs - Forest punching incident that would be dealt with the next time the ball goes dead, and if the offending side scores, that is disallowed.  You wouldn't eradicate all the mistakes, but what would happen is that whenever there is a doubt in the ref's mind they would call it in for review, which would in itself limit the number of errors resulting in a goal.

You could also use AI to advise on whether something is or isn't an offence which would also remove some of the variability, such as the two offsides above.

It's not an easy issue to resolve, and with owners threatening this that and the other when the decision goes against them, it makes it harder.