BREXIT.....

[Robbie 𝕏 @Robbie_NCFC]

2 minutes ago, Piethagoram said:

But with respect @Robbie "is it time to move on now and make the most of Brexit"... but the Brexiteers are clueless.. there is Zero strategy as to how the UK can move on! 

This old chestnut of "political union"...where in reality, individual parliaments in the various countries do remain sovereign! 

 

"Clueless." So Notts supporters who support Brexit are clueless?

Seems you want to shut this debate down. No matter.

I'm here to talk about & debate  about Notts ,that's what I joined this board for, and that's what I'll continue to do.

 

[Piethagoram 𝕏 @piethagoram]

Dear @Robbie "Clueless." So Notts supporters who support Brexit are clueless?"...I was IN NO WAY saying that. I was inferring to those Brexiteers who say we must move on, but in reality, they are clueless as to how to fix Brexit reality into today's political, social, economic environment where there are inbuilt conflicts, which say for example, conflict with international law.

Chris Grey's blog discusses the post Brexit narrative quite well

https://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2022/11/cant-pay-wont-pay.html

Again, I repeat, freedom of movement helped deliver the Danish brothers as owners of Notts. We may not have a club to support if it wasn't for them.

Just think about the possibilities of Notts scouring Europe for rare gems of talent that could drive Notts further up the leagues. Joining #EFTA maybe the half way house as a way forward.

COYP

 

[Ohh Tommy Johnson]

@Robbie I agree, we won't agree on this, but it is refreshing to have a considered intelligent debate rather than the rabid slanging matches which are more common on this subject.  It's a good discussion.

I think that Brexit was the result of austerity.  It created a large group of people who felt marginalised and worse off who were looking for someone to blame.  The right wing press fed the anti EU sentiment and Farage and Johnson brought the popularism which tipped the balance - along with a fair sprinkling of breaking electoral rules and blatant lies.  Still, it is what it is,

The trouble with Global Britain is that we have gone from being a captain on one one several battleships in a large fleet afloat on the sea of international relationships, to the Admiral of a fleet of 1 frigate trying to steer between the fleets of China, the US, and the EU.  We need to change our behaviours internationally to reflect this if we are to be successful... we are more of a New Zealand than an international power these days.

We are not in a position many conditions on trade deals and will have to accept what we are given - increased migration from India for example, hormone injected beef from Australia and chlorine washed chicken from the UK.  To trade with other countries you have to comply with the prevailing rules in the market into which you are selling, but if you can't impose your domestic laws on your trading partners then you have to accept theirs - the idea of making your own laws in isolation is a fallacy..  This is what made the single market work and kept costs down and standards high, everyone agreed on the rules of engagement and the block was big enough to impose or at least resist attempts from other countries to change EU law.  Unfortunately this was presented as Political Union, but it was simply agreeing ground rules.  In my field of work, we were adept at taking an EU directive and then making our own set of regulations which were different to say those in Ireland as they suited the UK economy.  We would often bring in additional requirements over and beyond those required by the EU..  

That is why we will need to accept lower food standards, environmental standards, removal of working rights and freedom of movement and a lower standard of living.  This is actually what we voted for, it was just dressed up as independence.  There is no such thing in a globalised world.

[Piethagoram 𝕏 @piethagoram]

Spot on @Ohh Tommy Johnson

 

[Robbie 𝕏 @Robbie_NCFC]

I believe the British people have given the Government a great opportunity to take advantage of the opportunities Brexit gives us.

For the sake of the Country, all of us, those who voted leave, & those who voted remain, should move on as citizens of our sovereign, independent Country & work together to make Brexit Successful.

 

Edited January 13 by Robbie

[Robbie 𝕏 @Robbie_NCFC]

On 12/01/2024 at 10:02, Ohh Tommy Johnson said:

@Robbie I agree, we won't agree on this, but it is refreshing to have a considered intelligent debate rather than the rabid slanging matches which are more common on this subject.  It's a good discussion.

I think that Brexit was the result of austerity.  It created a large group of people who felt marginalised and worse off who were looking for someone to blame.  The right wing press fed the anti EU sentiment and Farage and Johnson brought the popularism which tipped the balance - along with a fair sprinkling of breaking electoral rules and blatant lies.  Still, it is what it is,

The trouble with Global Britain is that we have gone from being a captain on one one several battleships in a large fleet afloat on the sea of international relationships, to the Admiral of a fleet of 1 frigate trying to steer between the fleets of China, the US, and the EU.  We need to change our behaviours internationally to reflect this if we are to be successful... we are more of a New Zealand than an international power these days.

We are not in a position many conditions on trade deals and will have to accept what we are given - increased migration from India for example, hormone injected beef from Australia and chlorine washed chicken from the UK.  To trade with other countries you have to comply with the prevailing rules in the market into which you are selling, but if you can't impose your domestic laws on your trading partners then you have to accept theirs - the idea of making your own laws in isolation is a fallacy..  This is what made the single market work and kept costs down and standards high, everyone agreed on the rules of engagement and the block was big enough to impose or at least resist attempts from other countries to change EU law.  Unfortunately this was presented as Political Union, but it was simply agreeing ground rules.  In my field of work, we were adept at taking an EU directive and then making our own set of regulations which were different to say those in Ireland as they suited the UK economy.  We would often bring in additional requirements over and beyond those required by the EU..  

That is why we will need to accept lower food standards, environmental standards, removal of working rights and freedom of movement and a lower standard of living.  This is actually what we voted for, it was just dressed up as independence.  There is no such thing in a globalised world.

Like I said, We will have to agree to disagree.

Edited January 13 by Robbie

[Piethagoram 𝕏 @piethagoram]

Dear @Robbie "

"I believe the British people have given the Government a great opportunity to take advantage of the opportunities Brexit gives us.

For the sake of the Country, all of us, those who voted leave, & those who voted remain, should move on as citizens of our sovereign, independent Country & work together to make Brexit Successful."

 

I am sorry Robbie, there are practically ZERO advantages. @Ohh Tommy Johnson succinctly summarises:  "That is why we will need to accept lower food standards, environmental standards, removal of working rights and freedom of movement and a lower standard of living.  This is actually what we voted for, it was just dressed up as independence.  There is no such thing in a globalised world."

As regards "should move on as citizens of our sovereign, independent Country & work together to make Brexit Successful."... again there is ZERO evidence or thought through strategy as to the means to achieve this. For example, the mantra "Taking control of our borders" has been proved meaningless in the context of international law.

Let me look back at one of your earlier postings:

https://www.briefingsforbritain.co.uk/ten-reasons-that-justify-the-uks-decision-to-leave-the-european-union/

I begin to have to say everything is a trade off. A common criticism of Brexiteers is "cakeism"

1. Deals with the power of the trading block. The CAP has been good to UK farmers too. However the Australia and NZ agricultural deals have significantly hurt UK farming, where the govt chose NOT to protect UK farmings interests. Now lets look at the fishing industry. 80% of the fish caught in UK waters are the kind of fish the UK people generally don't like. Instead of being landed at Grimsby for sale, it now goes directly to EU ports own fishing markets, costing UK on shore jobs! Exporting jobs was NOT on the side of that infamous bus. Strategically too, one has to look at Russia to view that "food security" is vitally important, so if that results in a small premium on the cost of food, so be it.

2. EU misallocates resources...re CAP.... see my answer above on food security

3. anti democratic? I asked you before which EU laws in 45 or so years, you disagree with? As regards Northern Ireland, EU is only respecting what the UK signed up to in the Good Friday Agreement, which is registered at the United Nations

4. It's generally accepted that EU law covers pan European issues. An interesting use of the word "purposive"... English law has a lot to be desired...ask all those leaseholders left with crippling cladding bills!

5. The Euro has become a Reserve currency, with the GBP , (British pound) just becoming a satellite of the Euro on the international FX markets. Whilst highlighting banks which have not collapsed, I note the collapse of UK's Northern Rock hasnt been mentioned!

6. Aging demographics are not unique to the EU, the same applies to the UK. As for "Douglas Carswell, the former MP for Clacton, likened the UK’s membership of the EU to being ‘shackled to a corpse’.".... So £400bn in lost tax revenues from being outside the Single Market is a price worth paying? I think not.

7. "regional separatist movements" are unique to each individual national state and are not really EU related. 

8. "increasing Euroscepticism in the EU" maybe, Germany, Italy, France but all three value the riches the EU has brought to them

9. Ukraine/ Russia.... so the Ukrainian people seemingly wish, as a democratic choice, to be with the EU. What's wrong with that? Look at Ukraine's history, especially the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor to see why Ukraine wants to be "West" leaning!

10. "there is massive corruption" in the UK too!!!! PPE, Furlough fraud, appointments to the House of Lords..I can go on. So UK corruption is fine and "sovereign" whilst EU's is not ... yes, I accept there has been some EU corruption...and corruption is BAD wherever it exists

So, Robbie, I too agree to disagree. 

I want the UK to be a stronger country, economically socially environmentally... but these are more easily achieved by being in the EU Single market and customs union.

Always willing to debate on twitter in preference to here, if you so wish. 

Along with @Ohh Tommy Johnson it's good to debate in a reasonable sense and with respect to other views

 

 

 

[Piethagoram 𝕏 @piethagoram]

 

[Ohh Tommy Johnson]

On 13/01/2024 at 11:54, Robbie said:

I believe the British people have given the Government a great opportunity to take advantage of the opportunities Brexit gives us.

For the sake of the Country, all of us, those who voted leave, & those who voted remain, should move on as citizens of our sovereign, independent Country & work together to make Brexit Successful.

 

@robbie . The trouble with your statement that we 'should move on as citizens of our sovereign, independent Country & work together to make Brexit Successful.' is that nobody knows what successful looks like. To me in means ability to trade with our biggest trade partners friction free, for my children to be able to experience living wherever they wish without restriction and to be able to boast the best food and environmental standards in the world.  I am more than happy to work towards this, but at the moment we have culture wars, the Rwanda policy (which, incidentally, requires us to accept Rwandan migrants in exchange for the refugees we send to them).  So, if you are happy to get behind my 'successful' I will happily work towards achieving it with you, but I suspect your 'successful' is different from mine, as well as that of many who voted leave. 

[Piethagoram 𝕏 @piethagoram]

 

[Piethagoram 𝕏 @piethagoram]

 

[Piethagoram 𝕏 @piethagoram]

 

 

[Ohh Tommy Johnson]

12 hours ago, Piethagoram said:

 

Another optimistic Wasps fan I see!!

[Piethagoram 𝕏 @piethagoram]

 

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[Piethagoram 𝕏 @piethagoram]

 

[Piethagoram 𝕏 @piethagoram]

 

[Piethagoram 𝕏 @piethagoram]

 

[Piethagoram 𝕏 @piethagoram]

 

[Piethagoram 𝕏 @piethagoram]

 

[Piethagoram 𝕏 @piethagoram]

 

[Piethagoram 𝕏 @piethagoram]

 

[Piethagoram 𝕏 @piethagoram]

 

[Piethagoram 𝕏 @piethagoram]

 

[Piethagoram 𝕏 @piethagoram]