On this day in 1864

[Fan of Big Tone 𝕏 @mainstandpie]

I wonder where we’d be now and what we’d be doing if those people hadn’t met in the George Hotel? We’d probably all be supporting the other Nottingham team. 

I wonder if @super_ram can remember it, he’d be around 12 then. 

 

[super_ram]

1 hour ago, Fan of Big Tone said:

I wonder where we’d be now and what we’d be doing if those people hadn’t met in the George Hotel? We’d probably all be supporting the other Nottingham team. 

I wonder if @super_ram can remember it, he’d be around 12 then. 

My grandparents weren't  even born then thank you very much,Mr wind up merchant @Fan of Big Tone and I was just about to close my laptop when I read this post.I'll be having nightmares  now at the thought of supporting that lot the wrong side of the Trent

 

[Chris Website URL Visit Site 𝕏 fmcj10 Instagram fmcj10]

Historically, this is the actual birth of Notts County.

Our club's history does date back to 1862, which is where we are credited as being founded, but in fact this meeting is when it officially took place. Records in Nottingham show that we existed, but there was nothing formal before 1864. This bit of history tends to trigger some fans, who like to argue that we were founded in 1862, but the league only came around in 1888 and by which point our first ever match was today.

 

[KingMaynard]

This is the beauty of PON, it offers nuggets of history and a pleasant platform to discuss Notts without any nuisance.

[DangerousSausage]

I'm going to be pedantic and point out that we weren't the first professional football club - the game was strictly amateur at the time and the Lancashire clubs probably started (illegally) paying their players first. We're the oldest football club that is currently professional.

Now I've got that out of the way, I've had a look at the Notts history book by Darrin Foss. We played our first match against outside opposition against Trent Valley on 8 December 1864 after the meeting at the George Hotel - it was 20 a side and finished goalless, but the opposition may have been made up of Notts members too. In which case our first match against an outside club would have been on 2 January 1865 against Sheffield FC at the Meadows Cricket Ground. It was played under Nottingham rules with 18 a side, and of course we lost. The Sheffield club minutes for that game are the earliest record of us being referred to as Notts County. I can highly recommend his book (Notts County FC and the Birth of Modern Football) if you like this kind of stuff!

[CliftonMagpie]

I’ve noticed PON sharing this historical tidbit. I can see why the average fan might be confused, as they probably don’t research and just assume our formation date was 1862 when it was actually 1864. Even the plaque outside the Mercury Hotel is somewhat misleading.

[liampie]

yes, i have always liked how pon shares a mixture of interesting things especially before other area which think they have the right to everything themselves. i like sharing ex player posts in the group and that prompted people to form a group coping two older groups.

[DangerousSausage]

On 09/12/2023 at 01:59, CliftonMagpie said:

I’ve noticed PON sharing this historical tidbit. I can see why the average fan might be confused, as they probably don’t research and just assume our formation date was 1862 when it was actually 1864. Even the plaque outside the Mercury Hotel is somewhat misleading.

There's decent evidence that the club was founded in 1862, while the company was founded in 1864.

You could go further back though. There are letterheads from the nineteenth century giving 1860 as the foundation date. The club's roots go back to the late 1850s when a group of army volunteers incorporated football into their training - these were the same people who founded a football club a few years later. And now here we are!

[CliftonMagpie]

4 hours ago, DangerousSausage said:

There's decent evidence that the club was founded in 1862, while the company was founded in 1864.

You could go further back though. There are letterheads from the nineteenth century giving 1860 as the foundation date. The club's roots go back to the late 1850s when a group of army volunteers incorporated football into their training - these were the same people who founded a football club a few years later. And now here we are!

I can’t really provide a definitive comment on that. I’m certain the club was functioning before 1864, as we’re recognised as being established in 1862. However, to my understanding, there wasn’t any official system in place until clubs began to register. I’m not sure if professional clubs needed to be affiliated with a cricket or other sports team to be classified as professional.

I presume there were discussions beforehand, and 1864 was when most groups started to unite to form teams. This likely paved the way for the league to start in 1888. I can’t imagine people forming a club and then not playing for years. It was probably amateur or even just a group of forward-thinking individuals interested in establishing our club.

[DangerousSausage]

It was a club where the members played among themselves @CliftonMagpie, inter-club games were still years away. They'd arrange games between themselves such as married v single men.

And it was all strictly amateur, Notts included. Only in the early 1880s did clubs such as Bolton and Blackburn start paying some players, sparking an outcry that money was ruining the game. Some of this was elitism - in the middle of the 19th century, ordinary working folk didn't have the time or energy to dedicate to a football club, so members tended to be very well-to-do. When the first players started getting paid, this opened the game up to working class people as they no longer had to earn a living outside of football. It was no longer a posh man's game. The FA finally allowed clubs to turn professional in 1885.

It's fascinating to look back but it's really a world away from the game we know today, with clubs springing up all over the place and many disappearing again. The English Game on Netflix covers this era, it's really interesting stuff! 

[Chris Website URL Visit Site 𝕏 fmcj10 Instagram fmcj10]

14 hours ago, DangerousSausage said:

There's decent evidence that the club was founded in 1862, while the company was founded in 1864.

The key word is "officially formed". Notts' official website clears that it wasn't official before 1864.

It's a bit of a "moving the goalposts" type statement. However, I fully understand why we are accredited as founded in 1862 because our records so date back. There's paper work from 1959, although it was 1862 when a group of individuals thought to start things.

[Countyman]

Yes, I appreciate the historical aspects that the Pride of Nottingham shares. The club’s official statement that we were established in 1864 reveals that some fans are not aware of the facts. The problem with information is that it can be altered to fit people’s agendas. I’m pleased that we are recognised as being founded in 1862, but without having played at The Park near the castle and the documentation, we might have had to accept 1864 as our founding year.

[OoooooTommy]

Some Notts fans could grumble about anything, especially when they lack understanding of the subject. It can be perplexing, but learning about the history is fascinating.

[R H]

Hello - sorry to bump this up but I've been doing some research on football club foundations, mainly because some clubs (Stoke/Palace) are trying to claim a much older history than is warranted.

It got me looking into County's foundation, and I found something interesting.  The 28 November 1862 newspaper article mentioned on the club's website is not about Notts at all.  It's about a Sheffield club, Milton, formed out of a cricket club.  There's no chance of a typo - the Sheffield Daily Telegraph carries an advert about the match the previous Saturday.

The confusion seems to be that it was held at Cremorne Gardens, but not the road in Nottingham as the Nottm Guardian claims; it was an area later called the Orphanage and Milton played there through the 1860s.  Sheff Weds also played there in 1867.

I'm guessing that someone saw the claimed 1862 date, looked back in the newspapers for that year, found that football match, and assumed it involved County.  But the minutes from 7 December 1864 (as reported in 1925) state definitively that the Notts Foot Ball Club is being formed then and there, and it did not exist in 1862.

No idea where the 1862 date comes from other than there are claims for 1860, 1862, 1863, and 1864 in the various yearbooks...

At least the 1864 date does not affect the oldest professional club record (Stoke's claim is rubbish and Palace's does not even get THAT high) but it does add a slight twist.

So does anyone have any better evidence for there being a club - rather than occasional kickabouts - for the players who would eventually form the Notts club?

 

[Robbie 𝕏 @Robbie_NCFC]

Hi @R H and welcome.

Quoted from the Notts County website.

"Notts County Football Club, now universally recognised as the world's oldest Football League club, was formed in 1862.

Official formation followed two years later as the 'Notts. Foot Ball Club'

".

 

[R H]

Hi, Robbie, and thanks.  The concern I have is that some of this might be retconning because the 1862 date was accepted but the club's own papers said 1864, so there was an attempt to reconcile the two by saying the club existed unofficially before its proper formation.  But the more likely thing is that it was ACTUALLY formed in 1864 and that 1862 is an oft-repeated mistake.

Hence I wonder if there is something from before December 1864.  If there was anything beforehand they would have been playing between themselves, the nearest opponents would have been in Sheffield or Lincoln.  And newspaper reports were mostly drawn up by club secretaries who would send them in.  So the odd kickabout would not be something anyone would formally report.

But footballs were expensive.  The equivalent today of £50.  That's a lot to lay out for a kickabout - plus they would not be available locally.  That would be quite a commitment.

Maybe any memoirs?  Someone saying they had been playing for a couple of years before finding out there were like-minded souls up the road and deciding to form a club?