Notts Academy Is There Any Point?

[Wheelbarrow repair man]

With the Departure of Tiernan Brookes , Lucien Mahovo ,  and Luther Munakandafa being given the opportunity to seek pastures New I would ask is there really any point in Notts having an Academy? If I remember correctly the last player to come through the Ranks at Notts was Curtis Thompson, who played for the Club 83 times over a period from 2011-2018. Since that time despite several youngster showing Promise each just repeatedly get loaned out over and over again, and once their contract is finished, they are let go to carry on the Careers at other Clubs.

Main Case in Point. Tiernan Brookes was with the Club 7 years and in that time was loaned out 7 times. He was described by Lincoln United Chairman Rob Bradley as the Best Young Keeper he'd ever seen. He also covered for Sam Slocombe when Sam was injured and in each of his matches (4) it was declared he was going from Strength to Strength. If (like he should have done) been given a chance in the Notts Goal instead of the Club signing Aiden Stone, Tiernan could well have been the Notts first choice keeper this season.

The Magpies have Now given Ryley Reynolds a 2 year contract, his first Professional Contract I believe. So what's going to happen to him? My Guess he'll play some Pre-Season Games, he may get 1 or 2 Cup appearances then sent out on loan. To "Learn" how to Play the Men's Game.  Then once his contract is finished he'll be allowed to Move On Elsewhere.

So Much for Richard Montague's we want to Encourage Players from the Academy to go on and Play For The First Team. Yeah Right. How can they get a chance to play for the first team if they never get anywhere near the Pitch?  Their Best Hope maybe a place on the Bench. Look at last season the opportunity of a youngster playing along side Jim O'Brien, the wealth of Experience JOB has  could have helped the Kid progress at an incredible rate and they may have been able to, step into Jim's shoes once he'd left the Lane. That's how Academy players improve, not repeatedly sent to different clubs at a lower level. Plus how does this Reflect on the Head of the Academy? He's got all this young Talent and he's convinced they can Do A Job for the Magpies, only to see Players Depart to Pastures New once their contract is up. Truly the Mind Boggles.

[Robbie]

There's an interesting article in the Guardian about Football academies.

"Forget building with youth: club academies now exist to boost revenue

With Premier League sides horse-trading their best young talent, there is no chance of another Class of 92 today"

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2023/sep/05/youth-academies-premier-league-clubs-revenue-stream

 

[True Magpie]

At present, Notts faces a challenge in terms of how much they can develop a young player, and this is an area that requires improvement. The academy performs admirably, but it’s typically the larger clubs that recognise the potential and are then able to further nurture these players. Notts lacks a defined pathway for young players to gain experience in the first team, aside from sending them out on loan.

The academy continues to play a crucial role for the club. However, it will require a manager who believes in the young players and is willing to give them the opportunity to learn and match the quality of the first team. After two seasons as professionals, our young players should be ready to step up, but this is often when Notts decides to let them go.

Very few young players make it to a third season. Without gradually increasing their appearances in the first team, they will never reach the required standard.

[Wheelbarrow repair man]

@True Magpie How True your words are. Notts lack a Defined Pathway for young players to gain first team experience and a Head Coach is needed to have belief  in his Academy Graduates and Not Be Afraid to Give his Youngsters a Chance. 

That's why I said playing the young un's along side Experienced Notts Players will Help Them Improve their Footballing Skills. New signing Curtis Edwards seems to be one of the Teams most Experienced players now, put a Young up and coming Academy Player along side him, to watch how he plays his game and learn from the Guy in Proper Match Conditions, then Maybe Just Maybe the Academy Lad will Improve a lot Faster than being continually Loaned Out.

[Robbie]

As explained in the article I posted, academies are more concerned in producing good young footballers to make money on them, rather than see them graduate into the first team.

I think that academies should be in place to produce talent for the first team as they were originally intended to do, but apparently Clubs see things differently nowadays. Money always talks the loudest.

[Wheelbarrow repair man]

With the Greatest of Respect @Robbie your Article appeared (to me anyway) that it was just about the Academies of the Premier League. Teams like Notts are way down the list of selling Players for vast amounts of money. Did Notts receive and any cash for Tiernan or Lucien? Probably not but if any money was exchanged then it would have been a Piddling Amount compared to the upper echelons of Premier League Clubs.

Looking at the signings made by the Notts Recruitment team over the past few seasons, it seems a lot of  New Players who come to the Lane are signed on a Free Transfer and only the occasional player is bought with money, I.E. Macca £50.000 and Jatta £125,000 (?) that the Fans Know of as most of the Notts Dealings are done under the Undisclosed Fee umbrella. Which of course is their right. Buying (at a low price) or getting a player on a Free Transfer makes Financial sense, But I believe that bringing on your own Players is more Rewarding than going out and signing players who may or may not fit into the Notts playing system, a System (you would hope) an Academy Player was all ready familiar with.

James Sanderson at 17 is an Ideal graduate to be given a run in the First Team for a few matches to see how he develops, in Match Conditions under the watchful eye of a Senior Player. Will Stuart Maynard have the Courage to put him in the team? Would he be allowed too? More than likely Not and young James will be Loaned out continually and then Realised once his Contract is up. If Notts are going to keep on doing this, What Is The Point Of Notts Having An Academy?

[Robbie]

@Wheelbarrow repair man I was including all academies. I hope I am wrong, but Notts will probably finish up selling Sanderson on too. 

As you said, Notts won't make much on selling on academy players, but they might have sell on clauses built in, so they do make money if they become valuable.

Notts deal with bringing in free transfers and selling players for profit. 

That's how clubs like Notts make money nowadays. And of course Notts have the Nest making money too.

[Wheelbarrow repair man]

@Robbie I see your point regarding Notts may have a sell on clause in which they receive money should an Academy Player come good later on in his later career, But wouldn't it be Better for Notts to Benefit from his Skills for a few seasons then sell him on and include sell on clauses in that Transfer? Like they've Done with Macca (Hopefully).

[liampie]

we come very close to getting a youngster into the team, but then we abandon it. sam osbourne was always compared to established players but when he played he did score, plus he gave us something different. its a mistake to expect young players to equal or better than established first team players. you have to give them time to grow, so they can reach their natural ability and if we do things right, then signs of more potential will come with time.

selling academy players is one thing, but if they are good enough elsewhere. then they should be good enough for our level, i just think notts fear playing them regularly and things have to change if we want our own young players.

[Wheelbarrow repair man]

How very True @liampie how very True. If an Academy Player is Good Enough to play elsewhere he should be good enough to play for Notts or at least given a Run in the Team to see how he performs.  Sam Osborne is an excellent example who knows what he could have achieved if he had been given a Fair Crack of the Whip at the Lane?

[KB1862]

@Wheelbarrow repair man

I get the point in the post that players just seem to graduate and are given limited opportunities and the club tends to send them out on loan to gain experience but then never breaking through to the senior squad before ultimately being sold off. It can be frustrating seeing this happen to many players especially the likes of Brooks, Mahovo and Munakandafa who probably all were capable of having a shot but to reiterate @True Magpie point, maybe Notts just haven't got the facilities or capabilities that other clubs have at their disposal to help them along and reach their full potential.

Curtis Thompson, another player you mentioned in this post, was a great player who should've been kept on rather than sold. He shown he was capable while he was at Notts and went on to further show himself as a good player at Wycombe.

There may be players who manage to break through but unfortunately being a League Two club, those players who break through will be sold off to clubs higher up as it will generate an income for the club, the player will have a better chance of reaching their potential and it's hard for a club such as ourselves to say no to and deprive these players of opportunities like these to move up. 

[allardyces tash]

Cultivating talent presents a challenge. You can undergo all the training from a tender age until you sign a professional contract. However, nothing equates to the experience gained from playing in a real stadium, in a competitive match, and against high-calibre players. Notts seem somewhat reluctant to field their young players, not giving them ample opportunity to fully blossom.

This squandered potential is a source of frustration for me. I believe we all desire to see home-grown players in the squad. Yet, some supporters won’t afford them the necessary patience without criticising them. I don’t believe this hinders Notts’ progress. In my view, it’s largely attributable to the managers and the club’s desire for results.

[Wheelbarrow repair man]

@KB1862

Then there Doesn't Seem Any Point to Notts having an Academy then? If they don't have the Facilities or Capabilities other teams may have then closing down the Academy would save the Club Money. As it's been stated by @True Magpie there needs to be a Coach who is Brave enough and Willing enough to give the Youngsters a Chance. One Guy who would have fitted that Role would have been Jim O'Brien, he always seemed ready to Help the Younger Players (he was a Fan of Tiernan Brookes) when he was at the Lane, now that Expertise is at Sheffield United.

[KB1862]

10 minutes ago, Wheelbarrow repair man said:

closing down the Academy would save the Club Money.

But then you're losing out on potential transfer fees with the sale of players coming through the academy which could potentially be more financially beneficial to the club more than saving money on an academy being closed. 

A braver coach might be a good option to take the chances on these players but again it comes back to the point that I made about being a League Two club. Young player breaks through - has regular first team football - clubs start looking into player - club higher up offers a transfer fee that the club can't turn down - player gets sold.

[Wheelbarrow repair man]

@KB1862

But Notts haven't had any Academy Players coming through, they may play the odd game or get to sit on the Bench but that's it. The Fee either Tiernan or Lucien if there was a Fee involved would have been very little, whereas if those players had spent time in the Notts first team and if either or Both had caught the eye of a Club higher up the Football Pyramid their Transfer fee would have been Much Higher, and a Grater Benefit to Notts.

Therefore by not letting their Young Talent shine by playing them in the First team  Notts will receive Little or No Cash when they Move On.

[menzinho]

Neal Ardley, Ian Burchnall, Luke Williams didn't pick any academy players to regularly start, and it's the same with Stuart Maynard now too. So are they all wrong or is it just simply the players aren't up to standard and therefore not ready to play? Like every other player at Notts, they've got to earn their chance surely?

If we just suddenly start all these youngsters and results are affected because of it the fans will just immediately call for them to be out of the team and blame the head coach for chucking them in too early. We have to realistic here with the academy how many a 17/18 year old players will actually be able to go straight into the team and improve it? A very low percentage sadly. I think the issue for a lot of the academy players is that they simply need more time to develop but because we don't have a reserve team they don't always get the chance to prove themselves properly at Notts.

[Piethagoram]

The lack of a proper Reserve team is crucial. Luther Wilding after leaving Notts walked straight into Stevenage's team and has done very well. I'm still annoyed with Nolan releasing Luther and Curtis.... Nolan was clueless

[Robbie]

I don't think there is an excuse not to include at least one academy player on the bench this season.

League 2 clubs are allowed 7 players on the bench with up to 5 substitutions allowed.

If the team is two or three goals ahead halfway through the second half, why not put an academy player on?

Young players can improve if they are regularly playing with experienced senior players.

Loaning them out to teams further down the football pyramid is not going to benefit a young player in my opinion.

[Simon Clark]

I think there are a few issues with the way the system works.

The vast majority of academy players - at any club, not just Notts - aren't good enough to make it. Sad, but it's borne out by the numbers. 

When one is very good, there is an agreement that PL teams can just pick them up for a standard fee. Obviously if several clubs are interested you may get an auction situation, but we've lost Bearne, He and Etete recently without having the chance to play them and I'm certain at least the last 2 would have had a decent run in our team.

With Thompson as the exception, most players who Notts let go don't go on to better things. I know Bishop eventually has done but after several years at NLN level. Almost everyone else has stayed below NL level becasue the best ones get picked up before we have chance.

I think @Piethagoram makes a great point, that we have nothing to bridge the gap between kids football and the senior side.

Like @Robbie I'd love to see an academy player on the bench each game but, as a coach, you can't really select the bench on the basis that we'll be comfortably clear and able to give someone a chance. You've got to do it on the basis they are ready and able to do the job today.

[Robbie]

I get your point @Simon Clark 

If we take Sanderson as an example, if there are seven players allowed on the bench, he should be there. 

A determination has to be made early whether an academy player is going to be good enough.

Sanderson has shown that he is on the cusp. I say give the lad a chance and bring him on for a period of time every game & if he is good enough, give him a start.

I would like to see Stuart play a couple of the leading academy players tomorrow night against Wealdsone.

[Wheelbarrow repair man]

But if You're Not Going To Give The Kids A Chance, I Ask Again What Is The Point Of Notts Having An Academy? 

Maynard isn't Going to flood the Notts Starting XI with Youngsters. If a Player isn't ready at 17 at What Age will he be Ready? The Head of the Academy must have an idea who His Rising Stars Are, surely he must speak to SM and say give this Kid a Run. Give the Lad ago and see how he performs. It will come clear very quickly if the Kid has got it in him, to progress further.

James Sanderson should be an Ideal Candidate for a Run in the first team. An Experienced Player could take him under their wing, point out  things such as Positioning,  and other skills he'll be expected to Learn , the only way the Kid is going to Develop Is Under Match Conditions, Playing First Team Football at the Lane, and NOT  Sent Out On Loan Repeatedly.

[KB1862]

21 hours ago, menzinho said:

we don't have a reserve team they don't always get the chance to prove themselves properly at Notts.

Maybe that's something for the owners to look in to. Reserve games just don't seem to be the same as they once were though even at the higher levels. But this would be a good way to integrate youth players in to the first team to see if they're up to scratch or not. 

11 hours ago, Robbie said:

I don't think there is an excuse not to include at least one academy player on the bench this season.

League 2 clubs are allowed 7 players on the bench with up to 5 substitutions allowed.

If the team is two or three goals ahead halfway through the second half, why not put an academy player on?

Young players can improve if they are regularly playing with experienced senior players.

Loaning them out to teams further down the football pyramid is not going to benefit a young player in my opinion.

Even if it's playing them in something like the EFL Trophy. I mean they have Premier League youth teams in there (which I still don't agree with) so why not give them a shot against them? It gives youth players a run out to see if they are capable and it also allows some of the senior squad some rest to focus more on the league. 

As for the loaning out to teams further down, in some cases it can prove beneficial because it's a tougher game. But, maybe loaning out to same level or higher would be a good idea to improve them further. 

[KB1862]

10 hours ago, Simon Clark said:

He and Etete recently without having the chance to play them and I'm certain at least the last 2 would have had a decent run in our team.

Both of these had a good chance to have a decent run in the team but unfortunately as you've pointed out the fee is set.

[TheSkipper]

The Academy's management is exceptionally effective. Everything at our level could be improved, but imagine the frustration of the coaches who invest so much effort into a young player, only for them to be released. Yes, you might start with around 16 youngsters, which is whittled down to 4-5 first-year professionals if you’re lucky. By the end of this journey, ideally, one or two wouldn’t be far off the first team. Selling potential first-team players is one thing, we can’t avoid that, but not providing a supportive environment for them to flourish is a missed opportunity. I’ve always felt that Jim O’Brien should have worked closely with the likes of James Sanderson, Madou Cisse, and Charlie Gill. If the club identified a senior player who could mentor our young players, it might better prepare them for life in the first team. We just throw them in and loan them out, there’s no time for them to settle and improve with the existing squad.

[Chris]

Personally, I think it's a culture and chance issue.

Notts is in a position where it's ambitious, and it might be seen as a luxury to play a youth prospect or young professional. I have been very critical of my disappointment regarding this over the years, as I have seen enough wasted talent. If Stuart Maynard could be bold enough to ensure that the likes of James Sanderson managed to start at least 12 games this season, even if the majority were low-key cup games, it's still vital minutes which lead to experience.

Experience which isn't always gained by going out on loan, this is more clubs hoping to excel the progression so the young player(s) are near to the first team in terms of footballing minutes.

Without really committing, we'll never know if any of the youngsters before their release if they will reach the ability where they can become a strong first team candidate.

Our academy is very good. I have seen training sessions before the issues under AH, and I am sure it's returned to that level, if not better under the Reedtz. The thing is, the majority of fans say they want to see youngsters given the chance but quickly turn against the idea. I have seen no end to promising players falling to criticism whilst they are learning. It's not productive, especially when it's over critical or directly put to them.

At the same time, due to the pressured environment managers are less likely to give youngsters the chance because it could be them that ends up being fired if results don't go their way.

Crewe Alexandra have a decent youth setup, as do a few other clubs, where players are given minutes and nurtured. Notts must start giving them better opportunities, and because it can work, the pay-off is highly beneficial. Especially when players start performing at a higher standard than what you are playing at.